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Nov 27, 2007 17:42:59 GMT
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 why is my floor covered in gearboxes? read on.... Anyone got classic ford Issue 117, Feb '07? There is a guide to type 9 gearboxes in the back. This one...  From reading the article, 2.8 boxes have significant differences to all other t9s, namely the bolted on bearing carrier below the input shaft and the corresponding cutaway in the bellhousing. You can just see both these things in the pic of the magazine. Trouble is, it seems now it is a tad misleading... I found myself needing a 2.8 T9 for a project, sourced a suitable box (allegedly from an xr4i) whipped off the bellhousing and found... a normal looking t9 front. OK, its a 2.3 sierra box  Bought another, this time out of a 2.8i capri on a B reg (saw the car).... did the same thing, also no three bolt thingy  got a 4 pot box out the pile to check, I'm now here...  Left to right, Sierra, Capri, 4 pot. Externally, all three boxes look the same, except the input shaft length. All the cating and stamped codes are the same (except the 4 pot bellhousing, obv..) The only way of telling one v6 box for the other is one has a sierra crossmember bolted to it and one has a capri one.  So I thought I'd check the ratios before throwing the capri box back at the guy who sold me it. All three boxes into second gear, mark input and output shafts with tippex. 4 pot, almost 2:1 (book says 1.97)  Sierra, also 1.97:1  Capri, about 1.8:1 (book says 1.81:1) Its a 2.8 box!!  But as you can see, it hasn't got the bellhousing cutaway, ot the three bolt thingy, and come to think of it, I've never seen a T9 bellhousing that looks like that, it seems to be an alloy one with casting reinforcements on its lower edge, like a v6 fersion of the fabled RS2000 bell. Quick peek under the 2.8 granada in the yard confirms it has a normal bellhousing too, and therefore the same box as I have on the floor. Further headscratching comes from another member here who informed me recently that a 4 pot bellhousing bolted up to his 2.8 box with no problems where (based on the CF article) I thought it might not fit. So whats going on here then? Are CF wrong (looks like) and what the heck is the box they have pictured as a "standard" 2.8?? From now on, I'm just gonna check 2nd gear to tell them apart. |
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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slater
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,390
Club RR Member Number: 78
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Nov 27, 2007 18:28:18 GMT
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CF are wrong. Definatly not the case that all 2.8I boxes have a bolted on 'thing'... my 2 don't! Maybe some do but I'm not sure.
Also not sure if it could be a diesel box? they are differant in some way I cant remeber (i think!)
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Last Edit: Nov 27, 2007 18:32:20 GMT by slater
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Nov 27, 2007 18:32:29 GMT
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Diesel box has a 2.29:1 second gear , but the long input shaft and a 4 pot bell. So what have they pictured? Manual Cosworth V6? Tickford turbo? Even the xr4x4 variant doesnt have an alloy bellhousing |
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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Nov 27, 2007 19:19:51 GMT
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early mk1 4x4 sierras have the alloy bellhousing but they also have a dirty great transfer case at the back of the box not seen the alloy bell housing on any other models but have seen 2 of 3 bolt thingys one was on a 3.0 liter Essex 5 speed that was in my old classic Capri the other was on a manual 2.9 i put in a mk3 not sure where the box came from though i know not all v6 five coggers are heavy duty though so could be that it was only the early version of the box had the heavy duty version  |
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Nov 27, 2007 20:05:29 GMT
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Hmm. I thought the heavy duty bearing set was why you cant rebuild a 2.8 close gearset into a 4 pot box. Thats what all the rally specialists say when they try to sell you a clubman set, anyway! So, seeing as there are close and wide v6 boxes (2.3/2.8), presumably on the same bearings, is there a close geared 4 pot box with a short input shaft? I've had plenty of t9 fords, and some do feel sportier than others but I hadn't considered a gearing difference cos all 4 pot t9s are supposed to be the same (xept diseasel ones, but they don't count)
Think I might check the four spares in the shed and the two in cars tomorrow and see. At leas one of them was from a tweaked 2.0i sierra, it will be interesting to see what ratios it has.
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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Nov 27, 2007 22:02:59 GMT
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there were a few different gear sets used on type 9's but I don't know how you could tell them apart other than checking the ratio's early 2.0 and 1.6 Capri 5 speeds had different ratios think the 1.6 was closer to help with acceleration but don't quote me on it
as for clubman gear sets quaife can build you pretty much any ratio gear set you want be it 2.8 box or 4 pot box
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Last Edit: Nov 27, 2007 22:05:44 GMT by Deleted
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Nov 28, 2007 20:12:02 GMT
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Ok, all the 4 pot boxes (and I have checked seven!) some capri, some sierra, have 1.97:1 second gear. So if there is a short 4 pot box its rare. Back to the questions though.... Does anyone have the box they pictured? is there a special, heavy duty alloy bellhousing T9 out there? Do regular 2.8 T9's have bigger bearings? How many "2.8" gearboxes are actually 2.3? The sierra box WAS taken from an XR4i, but is a 2.3 box. T9's don't last forever, it was a 20 odd year old car and the boxes are near impossible to tell apart. Doesn't take a genius to work it out, the car's had a scrapyard gearbox fitted sometime during its life but the box was sold as a 2.8 when the car was broken cos the CAR was a 2.8! At least I've worked out an easy way of telling them apart now  |
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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Dec 23, 2007 16:51:49 GMT
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Just tried Mr Scary's method to ID this box ive just bought for my 2.8 Cortina conversion - reputed to be a reconditioned capri 2.8 5-speed   1st attempt - using the output shaft turned anticlockwise - not sure what went wrong as I getting my ear bent by SWMBO at the time - think I went past the mark on the 2nd turn and turned it back  2nd attempt - turning the input shaft clockwise - seems to be somewhere near - but a curse word photo  |
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Last Edit: Dec 23, 2007 16:53:25 GMT by Autofive
Someone just shot the elephant in the room. |
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That looks like a 2.8 to me, then (still no 3 bolt cover though) Easiest way to tell is this. Mark input and output (like you have) then turn the output shaft one complete turn. On a 4 pot or 2.3 v6 box, the marks on the input shaft will almost line up, on a 2.8 they will be around 72 deg back so If it doesnt line up, its a 2.8 |
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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Dec 26, 2007 11:50:11 GMT
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That looks like a 2.8 to me, then (still no 3 bolt cover though) Easiest way to tell is this. Mark input and output (like you have) then turn the output shaft one complete turn. On a 4 pot or 2.3 v6 box, the marks on the input shaft will almost line up, on a 2.8 they will be around 72 deg back so If it doesnt line up, its a 2.8 thought it was 2 revolutions  |
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Last Edit: Dec 26, 2007 11:50:29 GMT by Autofive
Someone just shot the elephant in the room. |
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purplevanman
Posted a lot
Way too orangey for crows
Posts: 3,829
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useful thread Scary, cheers |
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No problem! Since I wrote this thread, I have identified the mystery alloy bell, and the 3 bolt layshaft bearing box too. What CF have taken to be a 2.8 capri/sierra 4i box is actually a 2.8 xr4x4 box with the tailshaft swapped over for a RWD one I also found a transit T9 (top change) which uses the same main case as the car box but pretty much everything else is different. |
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To get a standard A40 this low, you'd have to dig a hole to put it in |
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Jul 13, 2010 10:13:09 GMT
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Interesting thread, thanks Scary ;D just goes to show that what should be what isn't necessarily the case after 20+ years..!
I have a (relatedish) question - is there a 5-speed box suitable for a Ford x-flow engine? I have a spare Type 9 (?) from a Capri, currently bolted to a 2.8 cologne - can that be used with a bellhousing swap?
Thank you!
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Jul 13, 2010 10:15:46 GMT
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yes the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same on the 4 pots xflow and pinto, I think you need the flywheel and clutch bits from a 1600 pinto, 5 speed Sierra parts should do the job, you just need to cut the input shaft down and fit the 4 pot bellhousing, its the splines that are longer, just cut it of and chamfer the ends, i've done it with a grinder before.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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stinkwheel
Posted a lot
Doctor Of Gonzo Journalism - One of gods own proptypes, never even considered for mass production.
Posts: 2,280
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Jul 13, 2010 10:29:56 GMT
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nice thread ressurection, I'm currently looking for a 4 pot type 9 for my cortina (as per ad in wanted section) so this is very informative, thanks again retro rides |
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1973 Citroen Dyane 6 1980 Citroen Acadiane
1992 Citroen AX 1990 Citroen BX
1997 Citroen XM 1993 Citroen BX
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1996 Ford Escort 1989 Citroen BX
1997 Suzuki RF900 1988 Yamaha TDR250
1979 Honda CB400.
'I need less vehicles'
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stueyt
Posted a lot
Saving cars from the scrapyard.
Posts: 1,682
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Jul 13, 2010 10:34:52 GMT
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yes the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same on the 4 pots xflow and pinto, I think you need the flywheel and clutch bits from a 1600 pinto, 5 speed Sierra parts should do the job, you just need to cut the input shaft down and fit the 4 pot bellhousing, its the splines that are longer, just cut it of and chamfer the ends, i've done it with a grinder before. This isn't strictly true as the x-flow and the pinto bolt pattern is slightly different, or I may now be throwing another spanner in the works, as I tried to fit a type 9 to a 1600gt x-flow and it didn't fit, the only way was to change the bellhousings but the input shaft was then too long to fit the x-flow. I know years ago one of the rally sports type shops used to sell the straight cut 5 speed for an Escort, whether they still do them I am not sure. It might be worth getting in touch with Burtons as they would give you the definative answer. Cheers, Stu. |
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Always looking for the next project!
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Jul 13, 2010 10:59:38 GMT
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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kenb
Part of things
Posts: 604
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Jul 13, 2010 12:11:54 GMT
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yes the bellhousing bolt pattern is the same on the 4 pots xflow and pinto, I think you need the flywheel and clutch bits from a 1600 pinto, 5 speed Sierra parts should do the job, you just need to cut the input shaft down and fit the 4 pot bellhousing, its the splines that are longer, just cut it of and chamfer the ends, i've done it with a grinder before. This isn't strictly true as the x-flow and the pinto bolt pattern is slightly different, or I may now be throwing another spanner in the works, as I tried to fit a type 9 to a 1600gt x-flow and it didn't fit, the only way was to change the bellhousings but the input shaft was then too long to fit the x-flow. I know years ago one of the rally sports type shops used to sell the straight cut 5 speed for an Escort, whether they still do them I am not sure. It might be worth getting in touch with Burtons as they would give you the definative answer. Cheers, Stu. The bellhousing to engine bolt pattern has been the same since the pre x flow right through to the Zetec. However the bellhousing to gearbox bolt pattern did change between the models, as did some of the input shaft lengths. As for the type 9 boxes with the heavy duty shaft cover on the front, I'm think I'm right in saying this was only on the later granada V6 models. I have a ex Caterham box which is built up from the close ratio V box and has the plate on the front. Caused me allsorts of aggro trying to find a way of getting this on my Zetec to fit in my Anglia, as the normal bell housings are too large and hit the steering gear. In the end I found a Ali type E bell housing made especially for the Anglia, which I then made a cut out for layshaft plate then welded in extra strengtheners to replace what had been cut out!! Oddly though I didnt have to cut the input shaft down in length as the bell housing was already 15mm longer than it should have been.   |
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bortaf
Posted a lot
Posts: 4,549
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Jul 13, 2010 12:15:15 GMT
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The 2.8 capri and Xr4i boxes are differant, Xr4i boxes (and some later 4X4 boxes) have the uprated bearing with the 3 bolt cover (or would have done when new) the capri never got the H/D bearing upgrade, V6 alloy B/H came standard on the granada 4X4, littlenewt on BSC has one on his 2.9 2 door from a 4X4 2.8 EFi granada.
A 4 cylinder box goes on a xflow easy you have a V6 box by the sound of it so yes the bolt patten would be differant and the shaft longer, start with the correct box it's an easy job, last one I did required an avenger clutch plate to go on that's all (small diametre same as the crossflow flywheel but 23 splines, body wise it depends on what car it's going in ?
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Last Edit: Jul 13, 2010 12:18:41 GMT by bortaf
R.I.P photobucket
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the cf article was aload of curse word.
to fit type 9 to an Xflow you use either an early 1.6 5 speed clutch plate or late avenger clutch plate this allows you to retain the original flywheel /pressure plt & starter this also applies to 1.6 ohc (except GT which uses a larger plt with small centre & thus needs a 2.0 clutch plt).
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theres more to life than mpg & to much power is just enough.
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Bought another, this time out of a 2.8i capri on a B reg (saw the car).... did the same thing, also no three bolt thingy 
