Crane Cams? Now LIFTER query? (Chevy V8)

[ToolsnTrack]

Gents,

Figure its about time I start focusing on putting the Camaro through the mechanical gym and getting it road worthy. My logic is to start at the bottom and build up to a decent powered engine. The cam is as far as I want to strip the engine down to as funds do not allow for any stroking or such for now. Its a 5.0 82 chevy V8.

Seen these cams on Fleabay:

cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110468488030&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Has anyone used Crane cams before? Are they any cop? Also, is there any chevy or general V8 lads that would advise if this would be any good for a fast street setup? I will be running a true dual exhaust, I have hedman headers already, and plan on running an Edelbrock torker and holley carb.

Also, should there be any other considerations to this? Naturally I would be changing gaskets and whatnot whilst the Cam is out but is there anything else I should upgrade while i'm in its guts?

Thoughts?

Oh, a wee pic for your time....

[colc]

Crane are fine, and they should be perfect for your planned mods.. Just make sure you use plenty of lube before insertion! [vicar] 305 is a much under rated engine. Just make sure that your header mating surfaces are flat before installation, otherwise you'll never get the buggers to seat properly I wouldn't touch a Holley with a bargepole. Edelbrock carb with thier manifold a far better idea. These engines do have a habit of knocking out valve seals, change oil every 3k miles.

[burns]

You will need to replace the lifters if you replace the cam. I'm using a crane cam in the new motor I'm building, no experience of using it yet but they seem to have a good reputation. I would be tempted to put some roller rockers in there whilst you're at it.

[niterida]

Yeah Crane cams are among the best. I had a 286 in my aussie 5.0L V8 and it was a good street cam. 284 is just a very mild cam so unless you are trying to build a drag car it should be OK. Definitely need new or reground lifters to go with it. DO NOT use 2nd hand lifters or they and the cam will be buggered within a few thousand miles. And as has been said - use proper cam break in lube on the cam lobes and lifter surfaces.

[ToolsnTrack]

Thanks guys, thats good food for thought.

As for lifters, whats the deal there? I have seen varying info on 1.5 ratio and such, but what type should I be looking for there?

And if a 284 is slightly on the mild side, could i get away with a 288/296? or will i end up bouncing valves?

cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380186485501&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[10mpg]

Whatever you do break it in properly 20 mins at 2500rpm from the very second it fires, so make sure your cooling system is up for it..

for what it's worth that cam sounds fine, with headers intake decent 4bbl and a mild head porting sesh you'll be amazed how much it wakes up, especially if you bottom end is sound with decent compression.

[stealthstylz]

IIRC the '82 motors are the lowest of the low for static compression so i'd look at getting that up and some decent heads on there if you're wanting to use a 288/296 cam, and also if it's an auto you could do with a matched converter otherwise it'll bog off the line.

Matt

[ettorebugatti]

Look for desktop Dyno2000 or 2003 these are handy engine calculators predicting the power output of an engine configuration.

[30psi]

I have a Crane cam and lifters to go in my Thunderbird. The best way to compare cams particularly from different manufacturers is to look at the 0.050" duration as opposed to the advertised duration.

The cam I have for my Tbird is 204/216 @ 0.050". Its a nice torquey mild cam, however it's fairly substantial over the stock cam which is 186 @ 0.050. If you were to go on advertised duration the stock cam is 270 vs the 260/272 of the Crane cam as not all ramps take the same time to open to get to 0.050".

That Chevy cam is 222 degs which is probably as far as you should go if the engine is fairly stock, low compression and not a high revver. It may even be worth thinking about slightly less duration for a more rounded engine.

But... What's the stock cam duration?

[akku]

don't confuse lifters and rockers.

Lifters are hydraulic "buffers" which sit between the cam lobes and the pushrods, there is no deal with ratios here they are just hydraulic or mechanical and there are some variations thereof. The rocker arm is a pivoting arm which allows the valves to open as the push rod recedes.

You can use existing stock rocker arms with most moderate performance cams.

You must use new lifters on a new cam (assuming its a flat tappet type).

Again stock type hydraulic ones are fine for most "street" cams.

Crane have gone bust, sold off their manufacturing, concentrated on bike stuff and now seem to be back into automotive products. What a whirlwind.

I've used their stuff before and been happy with it.

The thing is to make sure the grind of the cam suits the rest of your build. So I'm off to look at the cam specs now...

[akku]

OK, same part number, grind number is now H284, still available new on Crane's website, this is what they say

Performance usage, good upper RPM HP, 360+ cu.in., bracket racing; Pro ET, Super ET, etc., auto trans w/4000+ converter, 11.5 minimum compression ratio advised.

although this is the advisory on your older grind number CCH284

FAIR IDLE, MODERATE PERFORMANCE USAGE, GOOD MID RANGE HP, MILD BRACKET RACING, 3200-3600 CRUISE RPM, 9.5 TO 10.75 COMPRESSION RATIO ADVISED. (50 STATE LEGAL PRE-COMPUTER, C.A.R.B. E.O D-225-21) BASIC RPM 2200-5200

Taken from a webstore.

Which is willfully confusing. The 284-H12 they sell now under a different SKU number seems to be a closer cam to this one...

Anyway, most of these cams are modelled on a 350. So if it claims "fair idle" there you may find its not so "fair" on a 305.

I used a similar pattern Comp NX284 on a 350 Chevy (although that one runs a split pattern with more exhaust) and I used Rhodes lifters which bleed down at low RPM to make it tamer. It was still an animal and it shook the car half to bits on idle. It needed more stall than I gave it which never helped.

The Crane cam has a bit wider LSA which may help idle quality but its only 1 degree difference.

Again the Comp was a more aggressive lobe (looking at the specified duration at 50 thou lift is more useful than the full advertised duration - the Crane is 222* in and ex whereas my old Comp was 240*/253* (In/Ex) - both from a 284* advertised duration... The real kick was in the lift which is not in the same league...

My thoughts after all that muttering are that its an old spec cam, which specs out somewhere between an Edelbrock Performer Plus and Performer RPM. I'd happily pop a Performer Plus into a 305 for street use.

[akku]

OK again!

Really I should edit these posts I guess not just add stuff on...

I'm concerned. What bore are the headers? You can easily over spec the primary tubes and lose torque. The Torker II is a nice manifold but the orginal Torker is way old school. Check which one it is... The Torker II works best with aggressive cams, good compression, good heads. Even then it is outperformed by the Performer RPM Airgap which makes same top end power but more low torque.

I would be nervous putting a single plane intake on a street 305.

You may end up with a car which bogs and is gutless and is a pig.

I remember a couple of guys doing that with 318 mopars, taking some fairly racey parts and finding the car was slower because of the lost torque.

318 mopars also struggle for compression as stock.

You will also struggle to get true duals under a 3rd Gen.

There are no off the shelf kits, have a look, they all double-Y pipe and run a single pipe under the passenger side floor.

Some people have made their own true duals but beware of issues of ground clearance and clearance over crossmembers etc.

[stealthstylz]

If it was me i'd speak to Real Steel or somewhere similar and explain what you want to achieve. They'll then be able to recommend a combination of parts that will work together so even if you can't afford the whole lot right now you'll know what you need to buy in the future (or buy 2nd hand cheap).

It's very easy to mismatch parts and end up with an engine that is horrible to drive. I'd recommend getting a decent converter in it, what are they stock about a 1200rpm stall?

Matt

[akku]

The problem with these is getting good compression and decent valve lift without the valves actually hitting anything...

If you want PWARRRR! You want a 350. 4" bore means you can use decent valves and get a decent bit of lift to 'em too.

I'd run the 305 as it is and build a budget 350 to replace it.

Car stays on the road, gets a better engine in the long run and it may even be cheaper to buitl a 350 than a 305, especially if you need rings or pistons...

[burns]

There is one true dual kit available from Dynomax:
www.summitracing.com/parts/WLK-89009/
Summit for some reason recommend using the flowtech headers, it's designed to fit some blackjack ones that I think are no longer available. My plan is to buy the dynomax kit soon, I expect some chopping will be necessary.

[ToolsnTrack]

Oooft, lots to take in!

Points to clarify: It would be a Torker II going on, not the original Torker. Am I better off just sticking on a Eddy Performer? I have heard in varying circles that these can be a bit tame? Really not wanting to be buying manifold after manifold...

Car runs a T5 Manual so a 350 is somewhat out the equation as tuning that will mean a T56 (too dear) or auto (too...no). Cars currently off the road anyway, but my wallet is keeping many other things on the road.

The car will not be getting lowered, and I am well aware of the Y pipe single bore gash that they come as stock with. Side exits will be my solution to this, and custom made.

The primary headers are relatively small bore 4 into one design, collecting around the flywheel area rather than at the block. I cant remember the specs off hand but they are used and came off a 305 originally.

Lifters and rockers, yup, I have been spending FAAARRRR too much time on DOHC J cars recently. Confused the 2 right off. Will likely replace the lifters with Crane hydraulic stock spec ones while the cam is out, rather than any performance gear. Will come back to rockers in a separate thread I think to avoid confusing the cam issue!!

I am aware now that I may end up with a touch of a gutless engine, but i'd rather endure it and perhaps change heads at a later date once more funds allow, in a sort of future-proofing move. I am again presuming that I can up my CR in some way with different heads rather than a change of crank/pistons etc? Is there a head solution to this? Can this be solved by heads from a different Chevy SB?

Lastly, idle shaking me to bits is of little concern, its going to be a stripped out street brawler, so I am happy to put up with a grumpy idle. In fact I kinda want it in a rather sick way...

Cheers for the insight so far gents, its gold! Much appreciated!

[ToolsnTrack]

Update. Took a punt and went with the 284. Will see how we get on with that!

[bozwell]

built a few Chevy circuit race V8 engines but a hell of a lot of work went into them.

on one i took the breather off the inlet manifold above the V chamber because i read that at high rpm blow by can actually stop the oil from draining back from the heads and starve the engine if the breathers are in the rocker covers. in that engine the drain holes were inlarged and the V lifter chamber was polished to promote and help oil flow back into the sump.

if you change the head gaskets be very carefull and read the instructions because some head gaskes on the Chevy engine require a drilling in the engine block. this is to cool the heads between the two exhaust valves in the centre of the heads. to force more cooling water into that area the head gasket is restricted in other areas so if you don't drill the block it'll run too hot.

the reason for this mod is to stop hot spots and steam pockets on a harder driven engine. especially around the centre exhaust valves.

it's an easy mod to do though

[ToolsnTrack]

If the heads do end up off I will be doing a fair old rework on them, including porting to whatever manifold i get, but thanks for the pointers! Will bear that in mind!

If I could move on to lifters, whats the difference in gains between hydraulic and mechanical? Worth straying to mechanical ones in any way? I presume they will make more noise (tappety?) but what gains are there?

For example, these lifters:

cgi.ebay.co.uk/CRANE-HI-INTENSITY-HYDRAULIC-VALVE-LIFTERS-CHEVY-/350438289110?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5197bfeed6

...seem like they will be a good idea for the cam i bought, but would you fellas recommend it? or would i be better going fully mechanical?

And once again, thanks for all the insight!

[akku]

You need a "mechanical" or solid lifter cam to use mechanical or "solid" lifters.*

Those High Energy hydraulic lifters will be fine with your chosen cam I'd have thought.


* I know some people have done mix and match but unless you have a very good reason to, don't!