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Sept 11, 2012 9:16:53 GMT
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The entire automotive trade has been using copper brakelines since, well, hydraulic brakes were invented I guess. I have never heard anyone ever blame the material as a direct cause of brake failure. Also brakelines cannot rattle around. They can't even so much as vibrate on tickover or they would fail the MOT. Doesn't mean I'm not right...................if you good folks wanna carry on and use copper in your ignorance.......fine........but do us all a favour and put a warning sticker on your cars........!! What it does mean is that it's acceptable practice, and nothing nowadays is deemed acceptable unless evidence suggests it to be so, your statements are incorrect, both about MOT's and the inspection of flexible brake lines, which if your unable to inspect, are only grounds for advise, and the use of it in rallying or motorsport, clearly you know very little on the subject, so I have no respect for your opinions
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Last Edit: Sept 11, 2012 9:19:05 GMT by ianboyd
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Sept 11, 2012 17:51:08 GMT
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Doesn't mean I'm not right...................if you good folks wanna carry on and use copper in your ignorance.......fine........but do us all a favour and put a warning sticker on your cars........!! What it does mean is that it's acceptable practice, and nothing nowadays is deemed acceptable unless evidence suggests it to be so, your statements are incorrect, both about MOT's and the inspection of flexible brake lines, which if your unable to inspect, are only grounds for advise, and the use of it in rallying or motorsport, clearly you know very little on the subject, so I have no respect for your opinions Having gone through the MSA Blue Book and contacted the MSA Tech dept as well I can also say I have NO respect for your opinions Dave
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kenb
Part of things
Posts: 604
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Sept 12, 2012 14:38:19 GMT
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www.mamut.net/automec_uk/subdet6.htmSurely its down to the correct grade of copper thats used in automotive applications. I've used copper pipes for the best part of 30 years even on my race car which was a contact formula, never had one broke/cracked. Copper pipe is or certainly was used in Caravan applications too for carrying gas to heaters/fridges etc. If it was that dangerous that would have been banned years ago too. Normal OEM brake pipes rust away. Nothing is infallible.
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Lopez
East Midlands
Posts: 867
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Sept 12, 2012 18:03:53 GMT
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Cars that have been used for rallying or any other motorsport should not have passed scrutineering as the 'Blue Book' specifically excludes the use of copper brake pipes as do many, if not all, club rule books. Where is this mentioned in the Blue Book?
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grahamj
Part of things
Old enough to know better....
Posts: 274
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Sept 12, 2012 23:27:43 GMT
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Been using this in the trade for 20 years, I have never heard of a failure, if flared and secured correctly, 3/16th pipe is sold by the shed load.... We flare to original pipes too with suitable fittings, were access is a problem, done 100's, never had an issue. What I do have a problem with, is plastic coated original pipes rusting under securing fittings, corrosion you cant see, leading to failure without warning....at least with copper you can see its integrity...
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Last Edit: Sept 12, 2012 23:29:23 GMT by grahamj
2005 VW T5 Dayvan 1997 VW T4 Dayvan Vauxhall Nova 2 Litre Redtop 1970 Moggy Van.. 94 vw Passat Bus 1985 Vauxhall Nova Base show car 1987 Vauxhall Nova 1.4 16v XE Rallycar
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Sept 12, 2012 23:44:04 GMT
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OK. I couldn't care less about whether you folks have 'respect for my opinions'.
.......I know I'm right. Use copper pipes or don't .......your call..........but don't say you weren't warned............!!!
By the way, the Earth isn't flat either................!!
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Sept 13, 2012 6:15:51 GMT
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so for those that use copper..why not cupro nickel ? its the same price within a couple of quid
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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Sept 13, 2012 7:12:42 GMT
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OK. I couldn't care less about whether you folks have 'respect for my opinions'. .......I know I'm right. Use copper pipes or don't .......your call..........but don't say you weren't warned............!!! By the way, the Earth isn't flat either................!! Keep going, all those that were maybe unsure as to whether your just here to wind others up, are more convinced by every post! ;D
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Last Edit: Sept 13, 2012 10:31:38 GMT by ianboyd
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Sept 13, 2012 7:59:08 GMT
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DH
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Sept 13, 2012 8:20:58 GMT
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I had no idea that copper brake pipes were the source of any problems. I used to make up copper pipes for customers and sell the kits when I worked in motor spares years ago.
It would be nice to separate fact from opinion (and attitude) on this one.
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Sept 13, 2012 8:27:11 GMT
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i have no real experiance either way , but after hearing a few comments theres not much good to say about copper on google
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91 golf g60, 89 golf 16v , 88 polo breadvan
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Sept 13, 2012 8:28:53 GMT
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in 10 years working on classics and modified cars daily, ive never, ever seen a copper brake pipe come even close to failing due to material alone- badly made, being too long/short, inadiquately secured, routed wrongly, or just plain old corrosion yes. any meterial wouldhve fallen foul of this. being copper? no. thats probably a couple of thousand cars ive seen in that time. granted, I use kunifer if I'm replacing any, just cos its no more expensive and I find it easier to work, but saying copper is dangerous is curse word. OE steel brake lines are far, far more dangerous cos of the corrosion issues previously mentioned, yet they're seen as fine! I wouldnt worry if youve got copper lines on your car, id say at least half the cars on the road do. then theres all the ones with copper fuel lines as well. raindance would have you believe they're all about to crash and explode. up to 50 years later we're still waiting. think of the nuns and kittehs
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Last Edit: Sept 13, 2012 8:30:52 GMT by Dez
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,786
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Sept 13, 2012 9:12:29 GMT
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I have no real experiance either way , but after hearing a few comments theres not much good to say about copper on google Well, if Google says it, it must be true. It would appear that in the real world, no-one has ever heard of a failure. To me, that speaks volumes
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Sept 13, 2012 9:49:29 GMT
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Quick quote for you Continue using copper if you have it, just make sure it is well secured and correct type. So you know the difference between the 2, copper at the bottom, Kunifer on top. (Shamelessly stolen from the interweb)
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Last Edit: Sept 13, 2012 9:51:23 GMT by damien4884
1977 datsun 810 180b estate
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reliantreviver
Part of things
"It will be getting fixed up come summer..." (year undefined)
Posts: 412
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Sept 13, 2012 10:00:56 GMT
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Maybe someone will be able to correct me if I am wrong. But I was recently told that you practically can't actually get 100% pure copper pipe, near enough all that is avaliable, even if advertised a such, will, inevitabley be an alloy of some sort, which is A cheaper and B stronger! One thing I will say is that in my experience, people seem to have a habit of overtightening the unions on the softer "copper" pipes. Really they need little more than nipping up if the flare is nicely formed. A friend who is a retired engineer who used to work on F1 cars in the 80's answered my question how tight is tight enough? With "when it stops leaking, that's pefect"
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Current: Reliant "750" Super Robin, Scimitar SS1s - 2 x 1300, 1 x 1600, 1 x 1800ti. 76 years off the road between them! Also - Mitsubishi Galant Sport and Hyundai Coupe Gen3
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Sept 13, 2012 10:16:01 GMT
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I've used copper and kunifer for years and never had, seen or even heard of a failure. Ever. This is one of those theoretical risks that in the real world barely exists at all. Just not even worth worrying about IMO.
I have on the other hand seen lots of leaking, fractured and corroded OEM steel brake pipes in that time.
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1962 Datsun Bluebird Estate - 1971 Datsun 510 SSS - 1976 Datsun 710 SSS - 1981 Dodge van - 1985 Nissan Cherry Europe GTi - 1988 Nissan Prairie - 1990 Hyundai Pony Pickup - 1992 Mazda MX5
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Sept 13, 2012 10:46:11 GMT
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Not many cars with single circuit brakes still running around, even if you did have a failure in most cases it shouldn't be instantdeathkittennunbustopmurderdeathkill anyway.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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kevfromwales
Posted a lot
the conrod's REALLY out the block now!
Posts: 3,909
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Sept 13, 2012 11:10:59 GMT
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I had single circuit in my first old car, a crossflowed 100e - I hadn't done up the caliper bolts very well on one side, and the caliper came loose, and sheared the copper brake pipe - on a huge hill coming down from the farm
even though I was tazzing along nicely, there was plenty of notice that the pedal wasn't right, and I was able to stop the car fine - split brake pipe does not equal OMGSUPERINSTANTDEATH as popup says
I've never had any problems with copper brake pipes myself - is raindance654 trolling us?
- and is the OP's car single or dual circuit?
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Almost on the road: b11 sunny breadvan, e36 tds, 325i skidcar,
nearly there: ford f250 tathauler, suzuki alto, u11 bluey
not for a while: ford pop, 32 rails,
not in this lifetime: ruby, '29 hillman
''unfortanatly I'm quite old and scruffy and in need of some loving. my drive shaft needs a new boot....''
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Sept 13, 2012 11:18:18 GMT
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I would ignore the prat with 5 posts on this subject.
Copper brake lines are absolutely fine when made and fitted correctly, cunifer are better but harder to form, I would prefer to know someone with a home kit had formed copper flares properly and spent the difference in cost on new unions than made do with old unions and tried and possibly failed to make a good flare in the much harder cunifer.
Copper lines are totally legal both for motorsport and road use. They will not fail an MOT or scrutineering, how do I know? I prepare classic cars for road use and motorsport. Never had a copper line fail in use or show any work hardening, I have replaced them due to the union being tight due to 20 years grot and a bit of corrosion welding it to the line and twisting the line on removal. Brake pipes should be replaced with common sense anyway, just because it hasn't broken or is leaking doesn't mean you should look at a hard line no matter what the material and think that's a bit grotty but it isn't leaking.
Use copper with peace of mind but make sure it's used correctly (i.e. As above not on sliding joints) and make sure it is supported well. Of course I would also suggest that you ensure the same precautions with any other material.
Oh and on the same subject, rubber flexi lines tend to look curse word long before getting anywhere near failing in service, but they do, if they are old no matter how good they look replace them, likewise stainless lines do have a longer service life but regardless how good they look do you really think 10 years + is an acceptable life for a brake component? I always change them when I don't know how old they are or suspect they are old, the liners will still crack with age and the wire braid will still crack at stress points possibly internally and puncture the liner.
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RetroMat
Posted a lot
Column Shifting!
Posts: 3,442
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Sept 13, 2012 18:11:49 GMT
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I work on Rolls Royces we use steel or kunifer for brake pipes (depends on what the customer wants!) We doo see plently of cars with replacement copper brake pipes and I cant say i've ever had a problem with them. The braking system on a Rolls shadow runs at 2000psi -if its working! and the copper seems to take this fine. I have had some of the original steel brake pipes burst though at pressure! these are the green plasitic covered steel hose that seem to hide corrosion amazingly well untill they burst, over the mot tester ;D In conclusion use Kunifer but copper shouldnt be an issue.
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