1967 Fiat 850 Coupe

[JohnT]

Fiat 850 Coupe

CLICK HERE
See the XWEBfourm Thread for more Fiat 500-600-850 Build Info



Stance created by Abarth
Fiat Abarth 1300 Front/Rear Springs with 185/60 tires

Malibu Ca - Gathering of cars before a canyon run through the Santa Monica mountains Jan 2015.

 
I kept the open pipe on for a few weeks until I had time to fabricate another muffler setup. It was too loud for the street, but it sure was fun, especially going through tunnels.


Installed a small foam air cleaner to make carb tuning easier. #50 idle jet seems to be working for now.



Complete FlickR Photo Stream available by clicking here

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" This car traded owners 4 times and returned to me for restoration; It just kept coming back."

In 1990 I found this car in an East Los Angeles backyard where it looked like kids used it as a trampoline; there were dents   and collision damage in every panel. But the car had minimal rust so I couldn't resist. I can't remember for sure, but I think it cost $200 with no engine.
The car sat in my yard behind other projects till 1993 when I sold it to Carlos from South Central LA. He kept it for a number of years when he gradually became mentally ill. Then it ended up with a Fiat friend of mine; Robert from West LA. Robert ran out of space for his projects and needed a Bugeye Sprite painted, so he traded the car back to me in 2003 for doing bodywork on his Mazda powered Sprite (see it below).
In 2005 I sold the car again where it was towed to Santa Barbara where it remained until 2010. Once again the owner faced storage problems and sold it back to me.
In all those years, the car was never worked on! It looked the same as when I first saw it except for a few more dents and maybe more rust. Since the car kept coming back to me, my wife said I have to keep it and restore it. We jokingly said there must be some sort of karma involved given it keeps coming back over a 20 year period.  So I was able to put it on top of my priority list and started working on it in 2011.

It still needs color-sanding and some parts attached, but since February 2013, I've been driving it every chance I get.

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2003 West Los Angeles California where it got kicked out of the garage behind it by an AH Sprite. When this photo was taken I had not seen the car since I sold it in 1993. It seemed amazing to me the car was still being neglected after so many years.
 
 
2003 Coupe's arrival at my garage after a 10 Year absence. Both cars just arrived after being towed from West Los Angeles to my garage. I painted the "Speedwell" nosed Sprite in trade for the coupe. 


Due to too many projects, I sold the car again in 2005. Here it is in my yard during construction of a garage addition, where it was always getting in the way.


Car stayed in Santa Barbara and Ventura Ca until  2010 when it finally got kicked out of another garage and into somebodies backyard.
After seeing the car outside again, I got it towed back to my garage where restoration started in 2011.


Engine Build Details
1973 Fiat 903 block bored to 66mm, stock 68mm stroke
30DIC Carb, 23mm barrels
Abarth crankcase breather system
Stock oiling path in block with centrifugal oil filter
Stock 903 alloy oil pan
Crane 3000 electronic ignition with late Marrelli distributor
Ported head with improved oiling to restricted cam lobes
Lightened flywheel, 127 pressure plate & disc
PBS 280ST staggered timing Cam
Completely balanced from Pressure plate to Pulley
Oil pump - modified to prevent cavitation and improve flow


Cylinder Head Modification - Improves Camshaft Lubrication
Fiat 850 and 127 heads have factory flaw in the casting where the lubrication path to the #4 intake tappet is starved from oil. I have found most of the time the #4 intake and/or exhaust lobes have more wear than the other lobes.  The solution to this problem is to mill or grind a gully for oil to drain into the pushrod hole to match the rest of the head. I've been doing this for every 850 engine I build.  

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Building the Abarth Breather TRI-AD
The breather triad/fork starts out with a thin wall steel tube filled with oven dried sand  and welded plugs at the ends. This is all done to prevent ripples and kinks when making sharp bends. Sand has to be dry to prevent an explosion from pressure caused by moisture/steam.
The piece shown here is packed with sand and is bent as many times as possible. I should be able to get about 5 triads out of this length of tubing. You can see how the ends of the tube is welded shut with a steel plug.


A jig is used to hold the tubing while it's heated to red-hot with a torch and slowly bent to form a tight bend.
In this case I'm making 5 of them for those building Abarth clones. What's done is to cut out a "U" section, drill it in the bottom of the "U" and weld in the straight center creating a fork or triad shape.


Many 600 based cars used this breather setup but the only 850 that used it was the Fiat Abarth 1000 OTS where installation looked skewed since the fuel tank inlet tray was in the way. In this coupe the gas tank was moved up front and the fill tray was removed, so there is more room to work with. I think Abarth's factory did the same thing on the Fiat Abarth OT 2000 in 1966.
In this pic you can also see the cut valve cover oil neck where it needed the breather tube directed toward the triad instead of the bottom of the air cleaner like in a stock 850. A neodymium magnet from an old computer harddrive holds them in place to position it for welding it back together.


Here is my attempt at gas welding; trying to get a "stack of dimes" look. I ended up just grinding it down and smoothing out. The Abarth factory welders laid better looking welds when they did this on 600 based cars.


After smoothing the welds with a abrasive roll & die grinder, it got a coat of epoxy primer and PPG urethane black.
It's tricky to get this kind of gloss out of a spray can. Definitely over restored considering Abarth factory workers just sprayed a fast dry lacquer from what I've seen.

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TransAxle
I fabricated a different Syncro Anchor Block (bottom block between the bannana's) and two shorten'd banana springs on 2nd gear. This upgrade applies more pressure faster and applies more positively than the original setup. This modification provides a consistent grind-free shift 100% of the time. Normally, even with new parts, these transmissions grind going into second depending on: wear, temperature, RPM/speed and the oil used.


I'm currently using Amsoil MTF transmission oil and the shifts are reliable with no clashing.  Amsoil MTF seems to be working good and has a proper GL4 rating.  I really don't think GL5 is the way to go in Fiat transaxles. I've use the new Penzoil Syncro Mesh oil for a while which has no GL4 or GL5 rating at all, plus it's specifically made for late model FWD Chyslers and Fords. I was just experimenting trying a new oil and made a bad choice as it's really a 5/30 oil and won't cling to bearings very well.

GL5 gear oil in these transaxles makes them work too hard; synchro gears need to be slowed or accelerated for a clean shift. Similar to a locomotive trying to stop on oiled tracks; as a syncro dog ring clamps down on the syncro ring during a shift, it can't get a grip fast enough with EP additives so you get gear clash; most often going into 2nd gear. EP (i.e. Extreme Pressure) additives are good for ring/pinion hypoid gears; not synchros. Since transaxles are combined differential and transmission; EP is needed in the differential and non-EP in the transmission. For now I'm going to take care of the synchros with GL4 oil which has less EP additive than GL5. I'm hoping the Ring/pinion will survive lower EP just like Porsche transaxles do regarding this gear oil selection compromise.

Many new oils have been developed in the past few years specifically for synchromesh transmissions. AmsOil, Royal Purple, Valvoline, GM, Redline and Swepco have syncromesh oils with lower EP additives.
Special mention for Sta-lub GL4 gear oil which is non synthetic and is priced under $35 a gallon on Amazon or a bit more at NAPA. I think this would be the best deal and would perform really good.

Below are deber'd and polished bearing and gear tooth surfaces. A sisal wheel and steel buffing compound were used to polish all the bearing surfaces in hopes of putting less strain on the synchros.
The less friction in this area, the easier it should be for synchros to speed up/down a gear before the dog collar teeth mesh with the gear dog teeth.

[Ray Singh]

Pictures no work?

[docjock]

C&P the urls into new tabs.

That's a fine looking motor Superfast...

[chrissyb]

very nice, growing up we had a series 3 with the twin lights. Rust killed it in about 10 years....

[nmretro]

Very nice! May I ask where you had the wheels made?

[stewart528]

Lovely build on the 850
But the white Ararth is just gorgeous

[JohnT]

Jun 26, 2013 19:02:01 GMT nmretro said:

Very nice! May I ask where you had the wheels made?

Wheels are from an Italian company called Di Diato. I got them from FAZA when they were in Daytona Beach Florida. They came in 5.5" and 6" x 13" with a very deep offset to fill the wheel-wells nicely. At 6" wide; too big of tire requires more modifications.

Here is the initial fitment before rolling the fender lips. Tires are 175/60 13's


Here is the front being checked. See marks where the lip had to be rolled. To do this on an 850 requires you to detach the leaf spring from the lower kingpin. Otherwise you can't create a bounce condition due the spring making it difficult. The floor jack is holding the wheel assembly up instead of the leaf spring.

[JohnT]

Jun 26, 2013 19:19:14 GMT stewart528 said:

Lovely build on the 850
But the white Ararth is just gorgeous

The "Abrarth" is a 1959 Fiat 600 Sunroof I built between 1988 and 1993. I purchased the car from a physics teacher in Culver City California who owned it since new. Purchase price in 1988 was $42.00! Back in the 80's sometimes these cars came to me for free just for hauling them out of backyards.

It has the same engine as the 850 coupe except for:

• Heavier valve springs
• PBS snail water pump
  
• 28/36DCD Weber carb
• Split pan 7 qt Abarth oil sump
• Full-flow oil system with filter hidden under the car.
  
• Breda cam 
  
• Open 2" exhaust with Abarth 750 4-into-2 header 
• Stock points ignition and 22 amp charging system
  

Here it is during a 7 qt oil change in 2012. Using 20/50 Castrol GTX 4T Motorcycle oil, rated SG. It contains more Zinc and phosphorous than current SM rated oils.

Pit area at the old Los Angeles Forum autocross


Here it is during the restoration of the 850 coupe. It does get out for drives and an occasional car show.
Note the new roof panel on the coupe in order to get rid of some seriously stretched metal.






Torrance Ca - Toyota USA National Headquarters Employee Car show Oct 2014


The original owner posing with me after we pulled the car out of his backyard.



My first full look at the car in the owners driveway.



The car became a driver with one of my spare 600D motors while I did some of the body work.

[JohnT]

Cooling System

Initially I didn't plan on running a front radiator, but after removing the rusty bottom of the front boot I had a change of thought. I didn't feel like spending all the time fabricating a new piece to hold a spare tire, so I began plans to install a front radiator. I never carry a spare tire in a Fiat, as it's more likely that something else will go bad at the worst time anyway.  
Based on the Abarth design of moving the radiator from the rear to front; I used the same materials as I did in my Fiat 600.
Due to the CCW rotation of the 850 engine, none of the water pumps I had were uni-directional or CCW; they were all CW units. I've used CW pumps in 850's in the past with no noticeable problems; but I never had a good feeling about it. I never could tell if water was flowing backwards or what was more likely; coolant moving in both directions or churning around.
I ran CW 127 pump on my 850 powered Bianchina (originally 2 cylinder car) with with a Chevy Vega radiator up front while living in Phoenix Arizona. Never had an overheating problem even in 120 degree heat! Could have been the size of the radiator (3-row) and/or the dual fans that helped it survive.
 
Below is a picture of the first pump installed on the car which I got off Ebay. It was listed as an Intercooler pump for an SVT Mustang and rated higher GPH than the 392 series Bosch pumps. It pumped so much water the engine was slow to warmup! Given I use an X/19 expansion tank (in the bypass circuit) that adds about a gallon to what needs to warmup before thermostat opens; it was a slow warmup. Which in a highly modified car makes it difficult to drive; I could've use 3 feet to manage feathering the gas and breaking at the same time.
After a month of driving the pump failed. I had some electrical problems with the Motorola alternator where it over charged and blew the regulator out along with the fuse to the water pump. After that the pump acts like it's jammed. It still tries to spin, but can't rotate. Don't think the pump failed due to the alternator; I'm just not sure, so I'm not buying another unless the price is right.
Here is the Chinese Ford Mustag SVT pump being mounted below the expansion tank. The tubing is 1/2" and 1" EMT.
 
Instead of buying the same pump again and possibly wasting another $60, I hooked up a small electric Bosch water pump from a Mercedes. I believe Mercedes, BMW and Porsche use these auxiliary pumps for cabin heaters. They are small, but that's all I had to keep the car drivable, plus I wanted to learn more about how these electric pumps performed. I knew it might be low on GPH/LPH, but it worked surprising well after I figured-out the Germans use brown for ground instead of black. These pumps have a brown and black wire and I had them hooked up to run in the reverse direction. In reverse the pump still worked good until the engine sees a constant 5000 RPM for more than 5 minutes then the temp starts to climb.
I've always been afraid of electric water pumps since you never know when they will fail. So I've always contemplated installing a 2nd pump as a backup. I happen to have 2 of the same Bosch pumps laying around so I got a 2nd pump mounted up front pulling coolant out of the radiator on the way to the rear pump. I guess you could say it's working as a "Booster Pump". The front pump is connected to a toggle switch under the dash, so I turn it on when I see the temp starting to climb and sometimes I just leave it on. The rear pump turns on with the ignition.
It's odd how all this worked out; stumbled into solving the problem of not having a backup pump. The way this configuration works is if one pump fails; the other will still allow the car to get home. 

Radiator from a VW Scirocco (below) with the fan being installed behind it. I didn't remember to check if it was a push or pull fan, so of course I had to remount it in front.  These radiators are very inexpensive: alloy/plastic, 2-row, crossflow and very light. Some drag race cars use them for a lightweight answer to cooling a V8 on the 1/4 mile. I figured it would be good for a 4 cylinder.

Mercedes/Porsche 944 auxiliary water pump mounted to the output side of the radiator. This helps pull coolant out of the radiator then pushes it to the second waterpump located next to the engine. Having two pumps provides an extra safety measure if one pump fails. These pumps come with a 5/8" nipples which were converted to 1 1/8" for this application. Don't remember exactly how I did it by looking at this picture. Remind me if you need to know and I'll have a closer look to remind me and I'll post it here.

Radiator dimensions worked out surprisingly well; fits between the frame rails with some extra room to spare. The front end sheet metal became flimsy with the removal of the spare tire tray. To make it stiff again I welded in a 1/8"x1/4" steel strap across on the bottom front fascia lip to strengthen it. Abarth did the same thing on his 1300 coupes after he went as far as removing the entire battery box too! You can see the strap still not completely welded the bottom lip.

Steel strap iron being welded to the bottom front lip to make it rigid again. Also visible is metal removal around the battery box to provide room for coolant pipes and a path for radiator heat to exit into the low-pressure area behind the front wheel wells.

Here is the construction of a cardboard pattern for the radiator shroud. I haven't convinced myself to cut hole for a front grill so I'm ducting air up from a scoop under the bumper. Hot air will exit into the front wheel wells and around the battery box.
Note the cut corner on the battery box cover to make room for the gas tank drain plug; it's a tight fit for it to drop low enough to clear the hood.
The battery cover front edge will also be flattened to hold the shroud down. New brackets where made to point the battery cover hold down studs in a vertical position instead of the stock horizontal. These brackets are visible in the Fuel System post.


Radiator air Scoop being fabricated in polished aluminum. Picture also shows some tape around the bumper mount holes while I'm test fitting a bumper.   This is just a prototype scoop made in 4 pieces to allow easier positioning. If it all works well, I can make a cardboard template from it and make a smoother 1 piece unit. It does have kind-of a desirable  "fabricated" look as it is; so I might keep it the way it is. 

Electrical conduit (1" EMT) is used to route coolant; just like in my Fiat 600. I used it in my 600 since it was easy to get, cheap and rust proofed, plus I had a set of EMT bending tools. What I discovered in my 600, is after a few years with common "green"  antifreeze, the zinc coating inside the EMT acted like a sacrificial anode. Draining the coolant after a few years, I noticed small chips of zinc. Since Dex-Cool became available; I've been using that instead of regular "green" antifreeze. I've changed the Dex-Cool too, and didn't see any zinc particles. Can't say for sure if Dex-Cool is better, but I've seen enough damage to  850 thermostat housings, temp sender banjo fittings and cylinder heads that I think I'm going to stick with the "orange" stuff.
In the pic below I'm sorting out how the system was going to fit together. I installed an empty transmission case and bare block to see how I could route all the plumbing. Notice the PBS "snail" water pump which uses a Toyota CW impeller. At the time, I didn't realize I was fitting up a belt driven pump which would rotate the wrong way. After awhile I discovered the problem and tried using a 127 and A112 pumps; but they were all CW vane rotors. Stock 850 pumps just wouldn't look good enough for me with the neck sticking out a foot from the engine block with no fan.
I've been following what Hillman IMP club members where doing for cooling. They discovered that using Bosch electric pumps to replace the stock pump works well; That's all I needed to know; something that's been tested and works!
I really like the idea of no longer driving a waterpump off the crank and gaining a little horsepower and loosing a belt.
Recently I looked-up "12V electric pump" on Ebay and found the SVT pump I purchased is a Chinese pump really designed for water fountains and water heaters. I still haven't found pumps heavy duty enough and in my price range, so for now I'm using a pair of used auxiliary Bosch pumps I mentioned above till I find something better.


Heater/defroster core being prepared with adhesive backed camper shell truck bed padding. This is a "closed cell"  foam which does not absorb moisture and stretches like electrical tape; very easy to work with. I think the same foam is used to wrap household plumbing to prevent freezing, but don't know if it's adhesive backed.
Narrow strips of the same foam was used to install the Lexan rear quarter windows and backlite.

This little 3-way tube simplifies the heater core plumbing. Still using EMT and it's mig welded together. Welding this type of steel requires cleaning off the exterior galvanizing. That is the reason for the black paint; it prevents rust.

This is where the 3-way is mounted to take the return line from the heater and form a 90 degree bend into the radiator. It's hard to see and install since it's mounted in  little pocket next to the battery box and wheel well. Electrical and fuel lines occupy the same space.

Originally two steel tubes ran through the center tunnel to feed the heater. I removed one tube since the radiator was moved to the front and doesn't have to travel all the way back anymore. A hole was drilled through the passenger footwell where the heater return feeds into the 3-way pipe.
Input feed to the heater is still the original pipe coming from the thermostat housing outlet.


Bracket location next to the trans mount originally for the heater hoses is now occupied by radiator hoses and a new clamp.

[79cord]

Lovely work shows long experience, even if every project is different so you still have to adapt as you go along.
Great to see.

[JohnT]

Jun 26, 2013 17:07:47 GMT chrissyb said:

very nice, growing up we had a series 3 with the twin lights. Rust killed it in about 10 years....

Chrissvb,
I truly know about the rust your talking about. They did rust incredibly well !

[stealthstylz]

Love these, the upgrades are all excellent too, looks fantastic.

[AB car pix]

Love this!

Always used to love spotting things like this on holiday as a teenager in the 90s...
Constantly disappointed when I don't see anything like this when returning to the same places as an adult now though!

[ettorebugatti]

Impressive upgrades, you seem to know your way round these lovely machines.

[luckygti]

Looks lovely, have a real soft spot for the 850's My Mum had one when I was a kid (my old man swore blind we didn't have one, but I would know...) One day!

[nmretro]

I don't no if you are planning to use a bumper or not but If you search for "Ditchdigger" here, he did a nice job cutting the front of his sedan and then bisecting the opening with the bumper.

[JohnT]

Dash Restoration


Dash: Veneer cut, backed with fiberglass cloth, stained, sanded and cleared.


I haven't been able to find a dash in good condition so I decided to take a different approach; Flocking.
Getting the dash flat without future cracks developing required use of similar materials to the foam already on the dash. Regular plastic filler would probably work or some other plastic filler, but I chose to use something I've never tried before.
Polyurethane Foam to fill seams and cracks. Using a putty knife or bondo spreader it's blended into the existing foam, pushing into cracks and air pockets from the factory casting procedure. Forgot to mention, don't try to remove the existing vinyl cover without a heatgun or else you'll take chunks of foam off with it; This only creates more filling work.  Also any warps in the dash need to be removed by another procedure posted later in this thread. This was not an easy project it took weeks to complete   Since it was all by trial-and-error it took much longer than it should have.  


As the foam drys it will look uncontrollable as it expands; but you can just keep packing it in and smoothing it in or just let it expand. After drying it's the easiest material to sand with 80 grit by hand and DA sander.


Polyester resin is brushed on in heavy coats to soak into the foam and then sanded. During sanding it's very easy to go through the resin to the foam as you get it back to shape. Reapplication of more resin was needed to soak back into the foam.


Epoxy primer was sprayed on the resin coat, then sanded lightly. Usually there are some pinholes or low spots where a fine glazing 2-part bondo is used to fill imperfections and re-primed. I think a rattle-can primer would work just as well.


The flocking procedure was very involved; So I forgot to take pictures
Here it is after flocking when wood veneer was being fitted.

Here is part of the procedure used to remove the warps out of the dash by actually fastening it to the car to conform to the proper shape. In this pic the headliner is also being installed.

Final assembly showing the smooth finish of the flocking and my "busy" (I.e. messy) workbench.

[fiataygo]

WOW looking very tidy!!

[jpsmit]

Fabulous! (And I would love to read the lesson on dealing with warping!)thanks!

[JohnT]

Jul 7, 2013 12:59:50 GMT jpsmit said:

Fabulous! (And I would love to read the lesson on dealing with warping!)thanks!

What I did initially was use c-clamps to fasten a stiff piece of wood to the warped section. While it was clamped for few days I would spray it with a mist of water in hopes of relaxing the fiberboard to remain flat.  Well, it didn't work 100%.
I thought it did and went ahead and primed it getting it ready to flock. Since flocking mistakes are harder to recover from than a paint run; I thought to do a final test install to make sure the fit was good. I discovered it was still warped.
Lesson learned is do extra test fitting/installing before final finish and install.
Obviously, if warped,  the top edge of the dash will not give an even fit where it meets the rubber; but more importantly is the rubber u-channel that installs over the top edge of the dash will keep falling off; unless it's glued on.  It needs to stay wedged under the windshield gasket. In my case, since I used flocking I couldn't glue it without risking a glue blob on the flocking.
This is the end result where you can see how the top edge of the dash follows almost straight under the rubber gasket. Above the defrosters is where it's still slightly higher reaching almost to the midpoint of rubber gasket.

What I did next is rough-up the surface where it was warped then screw it down to the dash panel. I used assorted wood sections made out of old paint sticks to wedge them between the rubber windshield gasket the the top edge of the warped section pushing it down.  Then I mixed some resin to slather on the ruffed-up area trying to keep it from dribbling down the front of the dash. I used some stands of fiberglass mat to help keep the resin from running.
After the layer of resin was dry holding the warped section flat, I removed the dash and positioned it with the backside facing up. Then brushed lots of  resin on warped section and followed that with some fiberglass cloth and then more resin.
That was it;    finally got rid of 90% of the warp. To go 100% after all this work wasn't worth the effort.
Of course now that I have the experience; I would do it differently next time.   First I wouldn't attempt to relieve a warp using water. Second I'd be more aggressive in relieving the warp by stratigicly cutting the dash fiberboard on the front and back. I'd use use a cutoff wheel to make narrow grooves to relieve stressed areas then use the same fiberglass approach to keep it flat. What I struggled with was "forcing" it into position and locking it there with Resin. The stress is still there and is still trying to go back to it's original position.
To finish it up; I just sanded down the resin on the top and sanded the underside untill it didn't impede it from laying flat on the steel dash structure.
After flocking, it was time to fit a rubber channel on the top lip of the dash. The original was cracked into pieces after 40 years; I needed a replacement. Universal Rubber channel is available, not square edged like Fiats; but just a rubber u-channel. I decided to make my own with clear vinyl hose for a different look.  The hurdle with this was trying to cut a vinyl/rubber hose in a staight line; next to impossible! 
With every challenge in restoring a car; new opportunities come along to learn something new. I did some research and found this.
Split ur hose