To Turbo ... Or Not ... To Turbo??

[insightful]

Hi All,

This is the first time I have asked for help on here and ANY help would be appreciated.

I am toying with the idea of turbo charging my old 1982 1.3L Honda Civic. I have already looked at the old route of porting and polishing the head and getting a four branch manifold made up. The reason I am going down the turbo route is that it is just a bit different and I love the way a turbo car drives.

In my past life I spent 12 years working on and owning many Renault turbo cars. I was thinking of using the turbo set up from a Renault 5 turbo as is has a small engine 1.4 and my Civic being 1.3. However the Renault set up in my opinion it is over complicated and also the turbo is oil and water cooled.

So the questions I have are as follows:-

1/ Does anyone know of a GOOD universal turbo kit that I could use?

2/ Long shot, has anyone on here ever done this to a 1982 Honda civic?

3/ Anyone know of any firms out there that do this sort of thing (but I would rather do it myself)

I have spent many an hour trawling through many, many forums but to no avail. I even called a firm call TDI in Essex who fair play to the chap I spoke to called around all his contacts in Japan and Europe but again nothing came of it.

So like I said at the start, ANY help/advice is welcome!

See below a picture of the engine bay:-

[sowen]

Metro turbo is 1.3, and uses an SU carb. A similar setup is used on the Maestro/Montego turbo's on a 2ltr engine.

[insightful]

Cheers for that sowen, never thought of that.

[sowen]

No probs, do some research on them, you may not need all the bits. Running mappable ignition is almost a must to make it work well.

[Boost_Junkie]

Hi

What kind of budget do you have???

I would have said anything up to like t2 sized would be fine. Are you talking about changing the whole engine or just modifying an existing setup to fit/work. If the latter pretty much anything can work depends how much effort you want to put in.

I would have said use the stuff you already have from the renault and whack a decompression plate in. You may not have to worry about connecting the water lines up...... they were bypassed on my 205?

Good luck sounds like an awesome little project car.

Al

[insightful]

Aug 22, 2013 21:31:09 GMT Boost_Junkie said:

Hi

What kind of budget do you have???

I would have said anything up to like t2 sized would be fine. Are you talking about changing the whole engine or just modifying an existing setup to fit/work. If the latter pretty much anything can work depends how much effort you want to put in.

I would have said use the stuff you already have from the renault and whack a decompression plate in. You may not have to worry about connecting the water lines up...... they were bypassed on my 205?

Good luck sounds like an awesome little project car.

Al

Cheers for the advice. I am actually starting from scratch. When I was on about the Renault's I was meaning that I have just spent a lot of time in the past working on the things! As far as budget all in all I would say around £1500-£2000.

[roccoguy]

You could use what you know from the renaults and simplify the setup. You could use a R5 carb but use a non water cooled turbo (I don't think the phase 1 5 used water cooled turbo?).

You would need to address the ignition setup too so that it can retard under boost. Mappable ignition setup like megajolt would be a good route to take but would probably need mapping on a rolling road to get the best out of it

[insightful]

Thank you for the advice so far. I have spent even more time trawling through books and the internet and I am starting to think I might just go down the NA route! I.E. Four branch manifold, remove the cylinder head to port and polish it etc!

I am not after a massive increase in power, and I just wanted to be a bit different and as I said before I do love the way a turbo car drives.

Oh well I shall keep gathering as much info as possible and you never know what might happen in the future as I am never selling this car!(although I have said this about the last 20 odd cars!)

[froggy]

Get a copy of maximum boost by corky bell .

[insightful]

Aug 24, 2013 14:24:08 GMT froggy said:

Get a copy of maximum boost by corky bell .

Cheers for that. Just ordered a copy off Amazon!

[RobinJI]

Sounds like a cool idea. If you're only after a small power increase there's no reason it'd be too tricky. Management's the main thing, as said, mappable ignition would be a huge bonus. I've been thinking for a while that the KKK k03 turbos used on the VAG 1.8 20vt engines would make a nice little turbo for a smaller engine. They're dirt cheap, they spool up very fast and low in the revs and they're capable of flowing enough for more power than the standard internals of a little engine are likely to be able to take. (A k03 will manage ~190bhp and a k03s ~240.)

I think a k03/k03s, megajolt and an SU off a metro turbo could make a really nice budget set-up. Obviously the exhaust manifold, down-pipe and charge pipes/intercooler pipework would need custom making, which depending on your ability to do this yourself could put the cost up a lot, and ideally you'd get it mapped and set-up on by someone in the know. Still, I think that'd be doable within your budget if you're capable of the fabrication side of things.

[Blown_Imp]

Hi there,

If you do decide to go turbo, I have a brand new Garrett VNT22 (GT2256) for sale, perfect size for your engine and only looking for £120 for it!

PM me if you do decide to go turbo

J

[insightful]

Aug 26, 2013 18:03:22 GMT RobinJI said:

Sounds like a cool idea. If you're only after a small power increase there's no reason it'd be too tricky. Management's the main thing, as said, mappable ignition would be a huge bonus. I've been thinking for a while that the KKK k03 turbos used on the VAG 1.8 20vt engines would make a nice little turbo for a smaller engine. They're dirt cheap, they spool up very fast and low in the revs and they're capable of flowing enough for more power than the standard internals of a little engine are likely to be able to take. (A k03 will manage ~190bhp and a k03s ~240.)

I think a k03/k03s, megajolt and an SU off a metro turbo could make a really nice budget set-up. Obviously the exhaust manifold, down-pipe and charge pipes/intercooler pipework would need custom making, which depending on your ability to do this yourself could put the cost up a lot, and ideally you'd get it mapped and set-up on by someone in the know. Still, I think that'd be doable within your budget if you're capable of the fabrication side of things.

Thanks for you reply, and what you have said makes a lot of sense. I fortunately have a mate who can help me with the pipe work etc.

After doing a bit more research I have found that the compression of my engine which is a EN1 runs at 8.4:1 which although is at the higher limit should be fine. Also I found and interesting thread on another site (see link below) which shows the old Triumph Acclaim had a special model made by Avon designed by Turbo Technics! It makes for an interesting read (well for me anyhoo's) The author of this thread is on this site and I have contacted him to see if he every finished it.

www.1stgencivic.org/world/c1zr/m1/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14607&sid=c97d490ce7e1ba31543fb69ef3ec57f7

This has given me the inspiration to do this! It may take a while but I want to do it properly. No bish/bash/bosh for me.

When I start it I will add all the pictures on to my (boring so far) thread:-

retrorides.proboards.com/thread/111423/1983-honda-civic-gen2-hondamatic

[insightful]

Aug 26, 2013 20:41:07 GMT Blown_Imp said:

Hi there,

If you do decide to go turbo, I have a brand new Garrett VNT22 (GT2256) for sale, perfect size for your engine and only looking for £120 for it!

PM me if you do decide to go turbo

J

Many thanks, I will let you know.

[nelliem]

If you are serious about doing it properly it is possible to retro fit the saab trionic management system.
IMO this is the best turbo management system there is, bar none due to the protection it offers and the self mapping capabilities.
More work involved but if you are careful you can get all the parts required for nothing (buy an MOT fail for £100 - £150, strip all the parts needed and scrap whats left for £100 - £150 ) and it would enable you to run injection rather than a carb/s. Obviously this would involve modding a manifold to physically fit the injectors. Lots of modded vauxhalls and volvo's running this system, esp in sweden.
What saab didn't know about turbo's isn't worth knowing IMO.

[usedabused]

What models had the Trionic system?

[usedabused]

Something like this then?



4-cyl engine - Trionic T7

Control module (589)
Crankshaft position sensor (345)
Mass air flow sensor (205)
Manifold absolute pressure sensor (431)
Charge air absolute pressure sensor (603)
Intake air temperature sensor (407)
Engine coolant temperature sensor (202)
Throttle body (604)
Limp-home solenoid (607)
Charge air control valve (179a)
Bypass control valve (605)
Oxygen sensor 1 (592Fa)
Oxygen sensor 2 (592Ra)
EVAP canister purge valve (321)
EVAP shut-off valve (588)
Tank differential pressure sensor (585)
Injectors (206)
Ignition discharge module (346)
Switch, cruise control (141)
Clutch pedal switch (133)
Brake pedal switch (134)
Brake light switch (29)
Main relay (229)
Fuel pump relay (102)
Relay, limp-home solenoid (640)
A/C relay (156)
ESP control module (671)
TCM control module (502)
Main instrument unit (540B)
TWICE control module (632)
DICE control module (628)

[usedabused]

Brief description

Saab Trionic T7 is an engine management system (control module) that governs air mass, fuel and ignition.

As the driver depresses the accelerator pedal, the accelerator cable turns the pedal position sensor located in the throttle body. The system requests a torque and the throttle motor turns the throttle until the throttle position sensor value corresponds with the requested value. The charge air volume is also increased if necessary. The system has the following advantages:

• Turbo lag can be compensated.
• Emissions can be reduced in connection with load changes.
• Integrated idle speed control.
• Load compensation possible throughout the whole load and speed range.
• Efficient torque limitation as necessary.
• Cruise control easy to integrate.

Fuel injection is sequential and is controlled by the air mass flow.

Ignition is performed by an ignition discharge module. The spark plugs are used as sensors to detect combustion and knocking. This means that neither a camshaft position sensor nor a knock sensor is required.

Saab Trionic T7 has been developed by Saab and has great development potential. Compared with earlier systems, the Trionic T5 has the following additional features:

Throttle body (604)
• Contains the pedal position sensor (turned by the accelerator cable), the throttle motor and the throttle position sensor.
• Informs the control module of the driver's torque request.
• Turns the throttle to the position determined by the control module.

Limp-home solenoid (607)
• Fed by a relay, the limp-home solenoid (640) is governed by the control module.
• Mechanically connects the accelerator cable to the throttle spindle of a fault arises in the throttle body or any of its leads. The mechanism must be reset manually.

Charge air absolute pressure sensor (603)
• Informs the control module of the pressure level in front of the throttle.
• Used for determining density of air in front of the throttle. Dense air requires a smaller throttle angle.

Intake air temperature sensor (407)
• Informs the control module of the temperature in front of the throttle.
• Used for determining density of air in front of the throttle. Dense air requires a smaller throttle angle.

Manifold absolute pressure sensor (431)
• Informs the control module of the pressure in front of the throttle. • Used to correct the value from the mass air flow sensor during rapid load changes.

Turbo bypass control valve (605)
• Connects the bypass valve control in front of the throttle.
• When the accelerator pedal is released, the bypass valve control line is connected after the throttle.
Prevents noise and varying charge pressure.

Mass air flow sensor (205)
• Sends frequency modulated information on the air mass flow to the control module. • Acts as the main sensor for fuel injection.

[roccoguy]

Aug 30, 2013 12:42:42 GMT nelliem said:

If you are serious about doing it properly it is possible to retro fit the saab trionic management system.
IMO this is the best turbo management system there is, bar none due to the protection it offers and the self mapping capabilities.
More work involved but if you are careful you can get all the parts required for nothing (buy an MOT fail for £100 - £150, strip all the parts needed and scrap whats left for £100 - £150 ) and it would enable you to run injection rather than a carb/s. Obviously this would involve modding a manifold to physically fit the injectors. Lots of modded vauxhalls and volvo's running this system, esp in sweden.
What saab didn't know about turbo's isn't worth knowing IMO.

Plenty of OE management can be remapped. I'm using the polo G40 management on mine and having it mapped to suit my setup (1.6 16v with an eaton m45). Its a nice simple setup too



There's nothing wrong with using a carb and modified ignition set up with a turbo tho. One of the lads on club polo used a R5 GTT carb and a modified dizzy using some saab dizzy parts and got just over 200bhp in his 1.4 engined polo. The same power and with a similar power curve as another lad with a highly tubed G40 turbo

been wondering recently if the R5 GTT ignition setup could be retro fitted to another sort of car when boosting it. From what I can see all you would need is a trigger wheel and make the dizzy static. I have only had a quick look at the setup on my car tho so I may be over looking some thing important?

[RobinJI]

There's definitely technically better set-ups than the Saab out there now, that are still retro-fitable, but the saab one is a good one in terms of on-line support. The trouble is fitting a full injection system is going to be a whole lot more work, and unless you're able to fabricate inlet manifolds and things your self, it's going to end up more expensive than a metro turbo/R5 carb and a megajolt set-up. If you're wanting lots of boost or high power levels then it'd be worth looking at, but if you're just wanting a low pressure set-up to make it a bit nicer to drive and something a bit more fun then it's overkill really.