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I'd actually really like to use Citroen uppy-downy suspension. There was a brief moment where I considered removing the suspension stuff from the rotten BX I had to scrap so I could do just that. I reckon the Citroen set up is marginally less comfortable but massively more competent in the handling stakes. I shan't be binning my old spheres at any rate, I'll be looking at finding a company to refurbish them so I can use them again and possibly help other wedge owners sort their out.
Human beings are pretty resourceful, I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, can make the Hydragas units serviceable even after they've blown.
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Rich
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 6,249
Club RR Member Number: 160
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How do I get my Princess on Air?Rich
@foxmcintyre
Club Retro Rides Member 160
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I'd actually really like to use Citroen uppy-downy suspension. There was a brief moment where I considered removing the suspension stuff from the rotten BX I had to scrap so I could do just that. I reckon the Citroen set up is marginally less comfortable but massively more competent in the handling stakes. I shan't be binning my old spheres at any rate, I'll be looking at finding a company to refurbish them so I can use them again and possibly help other wedge owners sort their out. Human beings are pretty resourceful, I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, can make the Hydragas units serviceable even after they've blown. Possibly look at the C5 as well, as they even have an electric pump and use more modern LDS fluid. The height is electronically controlled however so actually making the ride height 'setable' would be more difficult. Using Xantia or BX parts could work as it's all mechanical and the system is easier to adapt. Pipe work is easy enough but there's a lot of it! Edited: if the ride wasn't all that, it probably wanted new spheres. They are recommended replacement every few years. Also, there are a few different types including comfort and sport
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edwell
Part of things
Posts: 199
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The way I understand it, hydrogas is essentially a pre-filled airbag operated via a hydraulic link to the suspension travel. I'm sure you could create a super mega hybrid system, with different hydraulic "displacers" and remotely mounted airbags. Add in both a hydraulic and an air pump so you could adjust the ride height and spring rate independently. A bit like this previously RR featured Porsche but with bags instead of coil springs. PorscheYou could even try to replicate the front/rear link of the hydrogas system. Or just use remotely mounted springs like the Porsche for simplicity.
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edwell: Interesting article. I don't know enough about that sort of engineering to sort it out for myself but it did give me one consideration; instead of swapping the spheres for the bags, swap them for the shocks. I think with the area they mount in and the way the spheres mount would make it more suitable to put the shocks in their place with the spheres mounted on a suitable chassis location. Compressor/s could be mounted in the boot and/or under the bonnet without getting in the way and there's plenty of places to safely and tidily run pipework, it could even run along the old Hydragas routes. A remote control panel in the centre console is pretty easy to locate as there's a big space that would easily take it without looking wrong in the car. Hmm... I think short term I'm sticking with the Hydragas but long term I'll continue to investigate this thought of an uppy-downy Princess and welcome any new ideas or thoughts on the subject. Even if I find a solution to repairing the spheres to keep the stock suspension it's quite likely I'll go air/hydraulics in the future because I think I'd enjoy it.
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,993
Club RR Member Number: 35
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Did the brown princess you recently visit not have spare spheres you could have taken?
The alternatives sound potentially very expensive for what it would achieve and probably outcost the value of the car (although i know we retro heads do what we have to do to save our cars, sometimes it's worth remembering!).
I reckon you could just grab the spheres of any scrap princesses you come across and just store them like other owners are doing. OK they don't appear often but then again you have come across a few recently it would seem so they do appear. Any time someone is breaking a complete princess on ebay you could get them to send you the spheres in the post if the price is reasonable.
Sorry if my post isn't much of a help technically.
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Last Edit: Nov 7, 2013 14:39:38 GMT by monster
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Looking at the front suspensions diagram, you could certainly use convoluted bags in place of the spheres, that just leaves find the available space to fix a damper between the lower A-arm and the body.
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monster: The brown Princess did have spheres, but I had to prioritise on the spend and the time. Normally I'd've got them off the car but since they probably needed cutting free, I couldn't get the car in the air at the yard and I hadn't got relevant cutting tools at the time, they had to be left. If they ended up being as impossible to remove as the spares I already bought, it would have been a full day job just to remove them and getting the whole interior and parts for other Princess owners was, at that time, more important. Shame really, would've liked all four. I've already spent more on this car than it's worth anyway, at the moment at least unless a Princess is low mileage, pristine and high spec they're worth far less than they ought to be. I expect it will change, as it has for Allegro and Marina, but it may take another decade yet and there won't be many left at all by then. craig1010cc: It is very similar, I think you could probably do that though you might need strengthening plates on the chassis/boot floor to do it properly. Rear end is probably the easier solution. VIP: It's do-able, I think. I was just hoping someone had done it before me. I don't think it's the worst idea I've had, but I'm not sure it's the correct solution yet either.
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craig1010cc
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,993
Club RR Member Number: 35
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I think welding in some strengthening plates will be the simple part Front dampers, why not use something like they use on minis when fitting coilovers www.minispares-online.co.uk/?cat_id=9&sub_cat_id=184&prod_id=2546You'd need to make a new piece to clamp around the top arm, but it uses the top balljoint as well so should be a safe solution. Again the bolt-in point on on the upper mount will need plates to get the strength, but pretty simple to do
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I've already spent more on this car than it's worth anyway, at the moment at least unless a Princess is low mileage, pristine and high spec they're worth far less than they ought to be. I expect it will change, as it has for Allegro and Marina, but it may take another decade yet and there won't be many left at all by then. You're right of course, wasn't really worth me mentioning, because i too have spent a 4 figure fortune on a car probably worth less than 4 figures recently. Which basically is what ends up happening when you get attached to a car, most people on here probably fall into this category or have done so at some point in the past. It's a hobby I suppose, a practical one at least. I get much more satisfaction from seeing someone put time, effort and money into a car like a Princess than something predictable or a modern performance car. Sorry for steering you off track, keep up the good work!
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I think it's an unhealthy addiction is what it is. But I'm okay with that
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jomfun
Part of things
Posts: 213
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Nov 10, 2013 20:42:32 GMT
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have you seen Johnny off the TV's v6 allegro? I think that's on here and he had coilovers put into the place where the rear spheres used to be. Also would these fit ...? Check out this item I found on eBay: pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=140665615641
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Nov 10, 2013 20:52:13 GMT
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MGF has been suggested before, it's not a straight swap so it's not a case of just putting the MGF spheres in, they're taller and narrower than the displacers currently fitted. Shame really, as MGF parts are easy to come by.
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Can you link some technical drawings of the princess front and rear layout?
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qwerty
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,410
Club RR Member Number: 52
Member is Online
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Nov 25, 2013 10:29:44 GMT
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Surely it must be easier and cheaper to have the setup adapted to use MGF spheres? This would keep all of the benefits of the current suspension setup and give you years and years of cheap suspension supplies.
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Nov 25, 2013 10:38:42 GMT
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Citroen DS have pretty short front suspension struts and with some creative machining you could remote mount the Citroen spheres somewhere with more room. By the looks of it you could mount these struts in place of the original spheres. Combining this with the electric C5 pump and BX high pressure regulator you could come up with a workable hybrid.
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Nov 27, 2013 19:12:47 GMT
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Because I've been unable to find anything online, I've scanned in the technical diagrams from my own workshop manual, it should illustrate how it all goes together. Should you require a larger version, drop me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send over a larger copy. I've also scanned the general information on the suspension system and how it works, for those that might be curious. Since my manual is falling apart from being fairly well used I'm considering the mammoth task of dismantling and scanning it all to become a PDF as it's a really very useful book indeed. I'd be sure to make a better job of scanning than the above.
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Nov 27, 2013 19:58:34 GMT
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Doesn't look too difficult. Will require a lot of fabrication in terms of brackets and bag mounts etc. Also need to check what room there is so you know what bag to size to allow for it deflated diameter. Rear is very similar to Metro, which I've been drawing-up some bag designs for for a while for one of my projects. Other than that it doesn't look too hard to adapt it to run on MGF displacers instead.
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Nov 27, 2013 20:05:44 GMT
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I've been told the MGF displacers aren't rated to be strong enough for the weight of the Princess and the ride would be compromised quite severely. I don't know anyone that's tried, but this is what I've been informed. If this isn't true and MGF can be adapted to suit then that would be great because parts are, as others have said, plentiful and cheap comparatively.
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Nov 27, 2013 20:19:27 GMT
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The issue is the lack of dampers if you go away from the hyrogas/hydrolastic set-up. With bags you will need a damper for each bag, on a princess it's a case of doing the mounts for them, not a big issue in theory but go more in detail bits may need machine work, particularly on the rear hub pin.
In terms of MGF units, you can never really evaluate it unless its been done, and if nobody has done it now the curse word do they know. There's no sure-fire way to rate them. Plus, MGF units can be run without dampers, just look at any non-gti metro and they didn't, and apart from the ratings there is no difference internally to MGF units. Metro Gti units are NLA so it's common practice to fit MGF units in their place when the go pop or baggy. You can also run them in "individualised" format, i.e. no linking pipes so there is a connector to pump up each unit, so each corner is fully independent, which yes loses you a bit of the wallowy softy-softy business but makes it much better to drive day-to-day.
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