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Got an interesting one at work i'd like to clear up.
Is the GTW the max weight of a van plus the max weight of trailer?
or
The max weight of van plus the actual weight being towed?
The transit I use, is 3500kg, has a gtw of 6000kg but the trailers we use are rated to 2700kg.
3500+2700= 6200kg, which is over the gtw for the van.
The trailers loaded are never anywhere near 2700kg, but just wanted to know how it stands in the eyes of the law.
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Bit of a grey area at the moment. My trailer is rated at 3500kgs gross and I pull it with a Transit which like yours is also rated at 6000 GTW. This was never an issue before as long as when loaded you didn't exceed the max GTW.
Now though, I am lead to believe that the plated max weight of the trailer being towed must not exceed the maximum allowed of the vehicle towing it. So my trailer should be plated at 2500kgs max to be legally towed by the Transit.
However, I tow the same trailer with an Iveco pickup which can legally tow 3500kgs so unless I have switchable tags, I can't really use the same trailer with both tow vehicles.
I have spoken to Vosa both over the phone and at when stopped at a roadside check, and even they are not 100% and no 2 people have given me the same info.
I just keep running the trailer and make sure that it is within legal weight limit of 6000kgs when using the Transit.
If you only use Transit for that trailer, then you can ask the manufacturer to replate it to 2500kgs. All they will do is sent you a new tag and charge you a bit for the process.
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Thanks for the reply.
There's just no hope if they cant agree on what's what. People like ourselves want to drive within the law and safely and it seems with a lot to do with trailers it is easy to get the safely part right but the actual law is never clearly written anywhere.
I work for a company, that will obviously not be too happy if found the vans need changing or trailers downplated to as you say 2500kg, due to the costs and time, but at the end of the day it's not there licence at risk.
Some others are using box type transits that are front wheel drive with a gtw of 5500kg towing the same 2700 kg trailers, yet this problem or potential problem has never been discussed or highlighted :/
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AFAIK it's "Is the GTW the max weight of a van plus the max weight of trailer?" So even if the trailer is empty it's over the GTW. Also tacho might be needed - rules aren't very clear after a quick check so worth looking into them further.
Paul H
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In my mind, gross always means the max weight the vehicle is capable of including its own weight. So empty or full, the trailer is 2700kg as I see it.
It seems it would be pointless to have a gtw figure if you didn't go on the gross figures for van and trailer?
From what I read, we get away with tachos due to the nature of our business and distance we cover from the depot / place of work.
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Stewart there should be no grey area here, if you have a GTW of 6000KG than you can not pull a 2700 trailer with a 3500 van even if the trailer is empty and as for tachos if the van is 3500 or above you need a tacho when towing. But as said even some lazy can't be bothered to know their own job VOSA roadside inspectors are not sure, because they haven't read that large longwinded badly worded manual they have.
(yes that was sarcastic irony) The problem with understanding any VOSA document is that they don't just print the straight facts they have to have so many overly complicated 'except for' or 'in certain circumstance see subsection B/2 a17 amended' bits within the sections it makes it almost unreadable.
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This has been discussed at considerable length on the British Rally forum in relation to towing competition cars, and much as Dolly says, GTW is all about what the plates say, not what the actual load is.
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I do run my van on Tacho and Operaters Licence as I work for Hire and Reward.
As I use the Iveco and trailer to deliver small dump trucks at 7000kgs GTW, it means I would need another trailer for the Transit.
So for now, I will just carry on as I have been.
J, what is the score if the trailer doesn't have a vin plate on. Mine is quite old and the trailer is identical to a 2000 or 2600 kgs gross Ifor Williams other than heavier springs.
I might be better to just take it off then if stopped at roadside, they would have to do a bit of investigation work. I do have paperwork for the trailer if needed.
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Stewart there should be no grey area here, if you have a GTW of 6000KG than you can not pull a 2700 trailer with a 3500 van even if the trailer is empty and as for tachos if the van is 3500 or above you need a tacho when towing. But as said even some lazy can't be bothered to know their own job VOSA roadside inspectors are not sure, because they haven't read that large long winded badly worded manual they have. (yes that was sarcastic irony) The problem with understanding any VOSA document is that they don't just print the straight facts they have to have so many overly complicated 'except for' or 'in certain circumstance see subsection B/2 a17 amended' bits within the sections it makes it almost unreadable. What he said. There is no 'grey area'. I cannot legally tow our 3500 works plant trailer with my car as its legally over my cars plated tow weight, whether it loaded or not. What exemption from tacho use do you have then? I'm sure you need one.
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I do run my van on Tacho and Operaters Licence as I work for Hire and Reward. As I use the Iveco and trailer to deliver small dump trucks at 7000kgs GTW, it means I would need another trailer for the Transit. So for now, I will just carry on as I have been. J, what is the score if the trailer doesn't have a vin plate on. Mine is quite old and the trailer is identical to a 2000 or 2600 kgs gross Ifor Williams other than heavier springs. I might be better to just take it off then if stopped at roadside, they would have to do a bit of investigation work. I do have paperwork for the trailer if needed. Nicked from web. 1982 regulations demand that all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kg. This may be checked at any time by the police at a weighbridge. Since 1st January 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture . To comply with the D.o.T. Code of Practice for the recall of defective trailers less than 3500kg G.V.W. it is desirable that a trailer should carry a manufacturer's plate clearly showing: Manufacturers name and address chassis or serial number and model number Number of axles Maximum weight per axle maximum Nose weight of coupling Maximum gross weight (G.V.W.) Date of manufacture
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Don't know if this affects anyone on here. HGV and Bus/Coach drivers know this, but van drivers need to be aware and ask if it affects them.....
...................................................................................................................... I did one of my Driver CPC courses today and thought I'd bring this to the attention of people. If you are a van driver who drives a vehicle between 3.5T and 7.5T (that is anything from a Transit sized van with double rear wheels and up to LGV) and are using the category C1 class on your licence to do it, you MUST do the Driver CPC which entails 35 hours of training by September 2014. Just giving you a 'heads up' in case you didn't know! ..............................................................................................................................
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Don't know if this affects anyone on here. HGV and Bus/Coach drivers know this, but van drivers need to be aware and ask if it affects them..... ...................................................................................................................... I did one of my Driver CPC courses today and thought I'd bring this to the attention of people. If you are a van driver who drives a vehicle between 3.5T and 7.5T (that is anything from a Transit sized van with double rear wheels and up to LGV) and are using the category C1 class on your licence to do it, you MUST do the Driver CPC which entails 35 hours of training by September 2014. Just giving you a 'heads up' in case you didn't know! .............................................................................................................................. Well posted, it still surprises me how many don't know this, Bus drivers CPC came into force last year Sept iirc0 trucks are this year.
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Stewart, see optimusprimes post its spot on. As for removing the plates, its a big NONO and VOSA are well aware of it, you will get in more trouble for removing a plate or towing a trailer that should have a plate than you will for being over weight. If caught with an illegal un-plated trailer you may well be saying goodbye to it as well as a large fine and the cost to get your van and what ever you were towing recovered If the trailer is old enough not to have a plate you still need to be within the capacities of the van.
It's really not worth the risk getting caught as you could lose you operators licence as well. Get a VOSA Roadsider in a bad mood (ever seen a happy one?) and he will make you day hell.
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Yep, got my last CPC in June this yr,them i'm good to go. The trainer bloke reckoned there is going to be a big 'rush' nearer Sept to get courses done,and they'll be a lot of drivers who will be illegal come September. A lot of people don't realise that when you've done one of your 7hr courses, the details get uploaded to the DVLA. Also transport companies who come under the scope of these regulations are monitored as to whose drivers are doing it.
They'll be VOSA wombles outside the depots of those who haven't bothered, pulling drivers off the rd .....
To those of you non commercial drivers, if you come under scope, and you don't have a CPC card by Sept this yr, you'll not be allowed to driver commercially, and you'll get fined and points if caught.
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Has anyone got anything in writing or a clear explanation from vosa etc... that states that gtw is as I thought the max weight allowed of van and trailer, so in my case 3500 + 2700 = 6200 which is over the transit 6000 train weight, that I can present to my company.
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I did get stopped at a roadside check at Trowell Services on a Saturday last year with a TR7 on the trailer. Wasn't using tacho as personal use at the time.
Guys were friendly enough but did defect the trailer due to handbrake effort being insufficient. Once fixed they came out to my place to inspect it and give me the all clear.
the weight thing was never mentioned but I guess on another day with another Vosa man, things could have been different.
I've done 4 of the driver CPC and last one is booked for next month.
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nicked from web
As we understand the law, the approval rules also apply to trailers built by a person for his or her own use.
Towing in the United Kingdom
Size
Unless you are towing with a vehicle equipped with an air brakes system that is capable of being connected to the trailer, the heaviest trailer allowed on UK roads is 3500kg gross wt.
Maximum length (excluding coupling and drawbar) 7 metres
Maximum width 2.55 metres
Check the manufacturer's recommended towing weight limit for your vehicle. This should be in the handbook and on the VIN plate on the chasis.
Unbraked trailers
No unbraked trailer is allowed to have a plated gross vehicle weight* of more than 750 kg. No unbraked trailer is allowed to have a plated gross vehicle weight that is more than half the kerb weight of the vehicle that is towing it.
*The combined weight of the trailer and the maximum amount of cargo it is designed to carry.
Braked Trailers
Although trailers with overrun brakes can weigh up to 3500kg gross, actual maximum weights are set by the specifications of the vehicle that is doing the towing. The law says you must not exceed the Gross Train Weight that the manufacturer has set for the towing vehicle. Look in the vehilce handbook or on a plate riveted to the vehicle to find this figure. You then have to subtract the weight of the towing vehicle (including fuel, driver, passengers, luggage or cargo) from the Gross Train Weight. The amount you are left with is the maximum theoretically-possible weight of trailer that can be towed legally. REMEMBER, the law does not care whether the trailer is empty or packed to the roof with bricks, what counts is the plated gross vehicle weight of the trailer.
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Tacho rules are only for 'hire and reward' but it is worth keeping a drivers record of all driving in any vehicle that has a tow bar to prove that you didn't need a tacho! Also worth noting is the weight of the driver and passengers plus their personal kit or any tools/ equipment that are not part of the load, it can easily add a couple hundred KG.
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Apr 15, 2014 19:59:17 GMT
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Just to bring this back up and contradict the above....
I am not saying either argument is right as to be honest I just don't know for certain.
Last week on one of my regular runs in the truck, I passed the Vosa checkpoint at Ross on Wye. I wasn't stopped but decided to park in the layby and have a wander over and spoke to 2 of the Vosa vehicle examiners. They were quite happy to answer my questions, some regarding other matters and this one of trailer weights.
I gave them my exact scenario as previously mentioned. My Transit has GTW of 6300kgs so can legally tow a trailer loaded to max 2800kgs. (My Ifor Williams is plated 3500kgs Gross). I was informed by one of the inspectors that this was ok as long as if I was weighed, the GTW is within legal limits. I specifically queried the trailers permitted GVW but was told it doesn't work like that. Because I repeated my concern, he checked with his colleague who confirmed the same so as far as I am concerned, I will carry on using my trailer with my Transit despite the discrepancy. When I called the helpline, I was given different information 3 separate occasions, hence deciding to ask the frontline staff.
The reason I asked the VOSA inspectors directly is because they are the ones I'll be dealing with at the side of the road.
Stewart
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