An alternative way to 11" disc upgrade? chrysler/merc/others

[mitsuru]

While the hayfever hits me mainly during the day, it means I prefer to be up during the night so a lot.
I start looking at different threads and started researching the brake upgrade qustions on the neon.
Which ahd me looking at the PT cruiser brake option which most people go for! Then at the 300c
calliper option, which as I am am member on LX forum had me looking at their big brake options(yes
even though they have what would be way to big for the neon but still very good info)

forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=343569

forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=266137

www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php/349259-8-Piston-Brakes

www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php/274935-My-Journey-for-bigger-brakes-on-an-SRT8-on-a-budget-(DIY-SRT8-Big-brake-kit)/page2

www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php/330480-AMG-Big-brake-upgrade


So considering thar Chrysler was owned by Mercedes and there are some interchangeable parts
between the marks. Add that some people are using or experimenting between the different parts
available to them it is conceivable that there are more options available to those of us outside the
USA than was previously thought Just with the wrong brand written on them, and a few of those
a brembo! And as pointed out in one of the threads I have posted a link to above, to save money
brembo made the same caliper for a few different marks but put the marks name on them and gave
them a different pn (part Number) for each mark. The same 4 pot calliper used by Aston Martin on
the DB are used on the Jag xj6, xjs and other models. I can't be sure but it looks like MG tf, alfa r
omeo, Subaru impretsa to be very similar too but with the bolting tab built in where the jag/Aston
ones I've seen have it so the brackets can be change for further vehicles or used in the bremebo's
own kits!

The XJ6 (40?) uses 11.44 inch (290.8mm)brake discs, just forgetting the bolt pattern for the minute
but think about it for a minute. If the other marks using the same 4 pot brembo caliper have a similar
size brake disc to that it's not far off the standard PT cruiser disc 11 inch(280mm)isn't it!

Could it be possible to do only a little work on the standard mk1 neon hub so it takes a 4 pot calliper
with a standard 11" pt cruiser brake disc, rather than have to go through a full pt hub swap?

Jaguar XJ 12 H.E. Saloon 1981 -1992 Front Brake Disc
Brake Disc Diameter :284mm
Brake Discs Height :60.5mm
Stud / Holes : 5
Disc Type : Vented

And the funny thing is when I looked at the caliper for it was the same as brembo but labled LUCAS!!!!

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-XJ-12-H-E-75-92-Front-Right-O-S-Brake-Caliper-Lucas-Brake-System-/290996267560?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3AJaguar&hash=item43c0baaa28

Will I be raiding the jags at the scrap yard, no because they aren't any in the local one but there usually
get one or 2 mercs, a good supply of European produced stock but very few if any american cars. But it
might be a good topic for discussion.

[ettorebugatti]

Most Brembos I have seen are used with a 305mm disc or bigger and a disc thickness of 28mm.

A few of them are:
-Alfa 166, GTV, Spider
-Fiat Coupe Turbo
-Mitsubishi Lancer Evo
-Peugeot 406 V6 Coupe
-Seat Ibiza Cupra R

But since the Neon shares PCD with Audi/VW and Subaru Impreza, I would have a look of their discs would go onto the Neon with the caliper of one of the above (keep in mind the caliper diameters to avoid changes in the brake balance).

You probably need 17" wheels go with 305mm discs.

[mitsuru]

I get what you mean by the disk diameter and only finding the larger size disc callipers
being the easier ones to find. On the way to see a guy to see about a possible set of 4
pot front brembo callipers.

[mitsuru]

I had spent too long in the Doctors surgery having tests done I phone the guy between tests,
and arranged to go tomorrow for them. (you thing they were taking it for the blood bank and
not for tests!)

[dubbelduwwel]

Bookmarked! Will watch this with interest!

[mitsuru]

Okay I got a dealn on a pair of front Brembo brake calipers off a Mercedes S320 CDI (w220)




Still with pad sensors attached, along with the brake hoses and pads




Brembo on one side Mercedes Benz decalled on the other




A comparison with a mk1 neon front caliper which has been in a tub which has been slowly submerged in water because of a leak in the tool shed roof!






From the top of the pad to the bottom of the pad and then the bottom of the caliper(calliper upside down in picture)




The bolt holes are a not only a bit further apart but the holes on the brembo calliper are bigger but threaded




The standard neonfront brake setup for comparison and that disc is 10"(26cm)




The braking area is about 2.25" of the disc




The Merc brembo calliper has what could be described as a spacer bar between the outer pad and the raised section on the disc when it sits in place.




With the spacer bar resting on the raised section on the 10" neon brake disc you can see how much mre the disc would need to be to use these callipers.










The Neon brake disc is being propped up and there is a bit of wood wedging the pads agaisnt the disc.




Side view for reference purposes and so I don't need to do it again, If I use something like these need a thicker set of discs!




Now I dug out one of the 16" VW steel rims to use on these photos for reference on fitment and ventilation. Bolt holes are lined up/






Bottom pad is touching the disc.






And as a reference thebar is straight and true and is leftover off making a braket






I carfully inverted the hole thing to check clearances between the wheel and caliper.








And here is the size of the bits of wood for the space above.








I tried the caliper at it's worst for fitment by having the disc touch the inner pad












With same setup as above, the end of the tape measure is on top of the pads on the calliper.



32cm diameter is the diameter for the disc foir this layout!






If it weren't for that spacer bar on the outside of the calliper, it looks like it could be used with a 11" brake disc!
I will be keeping my eye open for brembo calipers but of a better size and design. The method of fixing these to hub means a hub such as that used on a mk1 neon is unsuitable due to the holes being too far apart and too big. Also the neon's hub design makes it harder to think about attachment.
I tried to remove the pins holding the pads in the calliper with no luck, one will rotate but that's it!

[mitsuru]

As I couldn't sleep last night as usual!

Well it looks like has been done with a voyager/caravan/minivan hubs!

forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=223015&p=1872094&hilit=caravan+hub#p1872094

For parts catalogues this one looks good for many years and vehicles.
www.autoricambi-euroamerica.com/html/chrysler.html

I think that might in it's self might need to be gone into a bit more so I have pm'd the
member and wait for his reply. As if I read that correctly it was mk1 neon bearings and
hub unit fitted into a emptied voyager bearing/hub carrier with the 23 splines and mk1
neon drive shafts!
Food for thought! Looks like i need to keep a lookout gor parts ytoo

[mitsuru]

I gave up trying to use a punch or bolt to get the pins out, dremel grinder bit and cut the pins in half instead as I didn't want to damage the alloy casting bolted either side of the iron core.



Here is the reason why the pins wouldn't shift until I used a heavy plate placed on the pin in the calliper hole and used a sledge on the plate!
The metal band had rusted and jammed pin in place, the pin could turn in the band but not be removed without BRUTE force!



Using the dremel grinder disc attachment(and a few discs) I went over one of the callipers removing the rust trying to get it back to good metal.





A side by side of one as is, and the rust removed but I'm leaving the alloy parts alone on it.



A quick spray of paint to protect and make them look a lot neater than the rust crud callipers they looked like when I got them!
Yes I know it's dark green but I couldn#t find the black, I will pick some up later in the week when out food shopping. The green will do as a base coat.





By removing the pins and cleaning the callipers up means they are either ready to fit to my car or will be easier to sell off as all the basic work for the next user has been done. I will make a start on the other when I have gotten some new dremel discs and wire brushes.

[mitsuru]

I haven't forgotten this I am still awaiting the gentleman I mentioned earlier(and linked to his build) to read and respond to the pm which was sent over a fortnight ago!

[mitsuru]

I made a start on the other brembo merc brake calliper, Before the wire brushes and grinder
attachments of the dremel went and attacked the tin worm.



I gave the calliper it's first coat of hammerite and the other calliper it's second coat.
Unfortunately for some reason the paint started bubbling. The callipers will be left to cure for
a few days before sanding the paint flat and applying another coat. I must remember to get
some black paint!

[mitsuru]

These came today!




It was shortly after I had placed the order and paid for them that Vitor had replied
saying "knuckle fitment is big change, that thing has to be like 1.5" wide." Well that
was £45 spent so lets see what it bought me and advise please if they are still
usable! :dunno:

Here is some info from vitors work for reference






The merc brembo 4 pot calliper bolt patternfrom inside holes 100mm outside of holes
120mm

Voyager 2003 alloy 3.3L hub I purchased with some dimensions please let me know
if there is a dimension you need from it so you can advise, as it is sitting in a box the
corner of my bedroom.











The idea was to have the bearing unit either converted to take a mk1 neon bearing and
spindle or get them custom made. I am just wondering if this is going to be far more
trouble than it's worth with these knuckles?

[mitsuru]

After posting the abpve Vitor kindly responded to it via pm on neons.org

Almost looks like pt cruiser knuckle has same caliper bracket dimension ( 130mm)

Knuckel to strut - PT - 32.xx mm

since neon is much lighter than caravan, you may be able to mill down knuckle to fit,
esp if you are not going to be any endurance racing.

Caliper bracket mounts on inside face of where you are spotting that 78mm dimension.

If they are able to be machined down to be used there is still the wish bone attachment
as there is a hole on the voyager hub but a cleat on the neon!

Converted to voyager tapared ball joint ?

[mitsuru]

[mitsuru]

I know that an adapter bracket has been done before on some lx platform mopar to fit bigger brakes but
ones I had seen mentioned advised against the use of aluminium even air craft grade (cant remember where)
Also I have seen something similar for the brembo official adapter brackets for alternative callipers!



But as the spacing of the holes is such that an adapter bracket is not feasible in this case, but might for other
callipers!

As the Voyager hub is cast alloy I will be needing to get to see the chaps at the machine shop, to see if these
hubs can be machined down without compromising their strength first before I can think of how best to proceed!

[mitsuru]

Okay back on to today's findings Flavells the machine shop I have used previously. And I had
taken one of the 2003 Voyager alloy hub. Good news, it can be machined down so it can be
used with the mk1 neon strut assembly. And it shouldn't weaken the hub structure.
Cost approximately £20 a side

The bearing assembly, which bolts into the hub will need to be taken out when they machine the
hub to the desired sepcs. Only then once teh bearing assembly has been pulled apart and
compared with a mk1 neon bearing and spindle can it be seen how best to proceed with that part
wither a new holder will need to be made or the old steel voyager one can be machined to
requirements!

[mitsuru]

A delivery came so another piece of the puzzle or two!
The caliper brackets which bolt onto the hub were up for sale by some sellers seperately
but I found someone selling clapers and brakets for the same price as a braket including
postage do it was a no brainer and £17.77 per side




A comparison, 2003 Voyager Calliper on the left with mk1 neon on the right




I'm just wondering about the size of the voyager piston being a bit bigger than needed?