3rd brake light as fog?

[joejoelowlow]

Hello!

Been searching for ages and cant find out if this would be legal/MOT ok?
Car is a 94 import mx5, not sure if being an import will make any difference. keep destroying the crappy hand down ones so thought that 3ed brake light would be a neat solution.


cheers

[Dez]

no, i believe they have to be offset, to the o/s. or everyone would just think you were braking all the time. every mx5 owner i know converts the o/s reversing light, a red led bulb is pretty cheap off ebay.

[spacekadett]

Iirc some Peugeots' (206 from memory) have a central fog light, albeit low down in the bumper. I think using the brake light, even if legal, could be an issue with people assuming its still a brake not a fog light. As above a red bulb in the offside reverse light tends to be the neatest solution

[Rich]

I think the high level brake light is too high to be used as a rear fog lamp, and a picky tester could fail you on having a highlevel brake lamp inop. Best thing to do would be to install a ring of ultra bright red LED's around the O/s reverse light bulb hole, but retaining the reverse light also, and dual purpose the lens. Invisible, discreet, and will satisfy the mot. Worst case is that you need to remove the o/s reverse bulb for the mot so as not to have conflicting lamps.

[ChasR]

Most MOT testers I have seen do not even bother checking the reversing lights but they will check the foglight in addition to its location. Rich I would say has the right idea here.

[Dez]

reverse lights arent part of the MOT- never have been.

[swampy76]

Sept 25, 2014 21:56:42 GMT Dez said:

no, i believe they have to be offset, to the o/s. or everyone would just think you were braking all the time. every mx5 owner i know converts the o/s reversing light, a red led bulb is pretty cheap off ebay.

my rx8 has a center fog light, though its at the bottom of the bumber

[ChasR]

It was haver lower than the rear lights in the case of the RX8 . The Poster is on about putting a fog light up very high on the car, in a potentially confusing location. It's a tricky one since one is altering an existing stop lamp. From the rules it could be interpreted as the high level light being a no go zone since a factory brake light is now inoperative. OTOH it could be seen as the brake brake light being disabled and reinstated as a fog light and thus being legitimate.

The fact is motorists probably would get confused. Christ, a number of cars on the road I have seen only have a rear high level light as their only brake light, generally due to many high level brake lights have 5 small wedge fit bulbs in place, meaning that at least a few bulbs will still be working.

UN Regulation 48 requires a separation of at least 10 cm between the closest illuminated edges of any stop lamp and any rear fog lamp

And from the MOT manual:

1.3 Rear Fog Lamps

With the rear fog lamp(s) switched on check that a rear fog lamp:
a.
is securely fitted to the centre or offside of the vehicle

f.
is not adversely affected by the operation of any other lamp.

[swampy76]

Sept 26, 2014 9:53:47 GMT ChasR said:

It was haver lower than the rear lights in the case of the RX8 . The Poster is on about putting a fog light up very high on the car, in a potentially confusing location. It's a tricky one since one is altering an existing stop lamp. From the rules it could be interpreted as the high level light being a no go zone since a factory brake light is now inoperative. OTOH it could be seen as the brake brake light being disabled and reinstated as a fog light and thus being legitimate.

The fact is motorists probably would get confused. Christ, a number of cars on the road I have seen only have a rear high level light as their only brake light, generally due to many high level brake lights have 5 small wedge fit bulbs in place, meaning that at least a few bulbs will still be working.

UN Regulation 48 requires a separation of at least 10 cm between the closest illuminated edges of any stop lamp and any rear fog lamp

And from the MOT manual:

1.3 Rear Fog Lamps

With the rear fog lamp(s) switched on check that a rear fog lamp:
a.
is securely fitted to the centre or offside of the vehicle

f.
is not adversely affected by the operation of any other lamp.

UN Regulation 48 requires a separation of at least 10 cm between the closest illuminated edges of any stop lamp and any rear fog lamp

how can that be so when things like the peugeot 306 have the rear fogs in the light unit?

[Dez]

yeah, ive just had a look too, and i was wrong about them being offset, they can be central but it seems they have to be lower than the main lights, not incorporated into the o/s cluster like they are on many older cars.
as chas says above, you may be able to wangle it through, but do you really want to? most drivers this days are utter morons, and giving them something else to get confused about will only lead to you getting a zara picasso/galaxy/some other wibblepoo people carrier rammed up your end cos they cant tell the difference between a fog and a brakelight.

swampy- reg 48 may have come in later? i don't really remember seeing car with seperate integrated fogs until the early 2000s?

[cianha]

It's a small job to run the wire to the RHS reverse light.

"While they're not a requirement for the NCT, if they're present, they need to work. Rather than just ripping the rest of it out, I thought I'd try using one of the reverse lamps as a foglight. I used Tamiya Translucent red, which looks pink going on, but is a good match for the rest of the glass once it dries:





"

[ChasR]

My 944 with a combined unit had 10cm between the units as I am sure did my Alfa 147. My Mondeo is the same.

Something has occurred to me though. My Mondeo has a combined side light and fog light (both are quite a way away from the rear brake lights.

[jonw]

Sept 26, 2014 10:20:51 GMT Dez said:

yeah, ive just had a look too, and i was wrong about them being offset, they can be central but it seems they have to be lower than the main lights, not incorporated into the o/s cluster like they are on many older cars.
as chas says above, you may be able to wangle it through, but do you really want to? most drivers this days are utter morons, and giving them something else to get confused about will only lead to you getting a zara picasso/galaxy/some other wibblepoo people carrier rammed up your end cos they cant tell the difference between a fog and a brakelight.

swampy- reg 48 may have come in later? i don't really remember seeing car with seperate integrated fogs until the early 2000s?

Audi's used to put the reversing light between the stop light and the fog from the mid 1990's, I suspect to get around this reg 48 whilst keeping intergrated fog lamps.

[rapidyellow]

the way I always understood it was that the fog lamp should be in the centre or to the offside, at the same level as existing lamps or lower

rear fog lamps, like front fogs, work better in the fog when mounted lower, as the light shines "under" the fog making it easier to see [fronts], and be seen in the fog [rears]

many many cars have the fog lamp built into the rear offside lamp, with the nearside having a reverse lamp but its not something thats immediately obvious

[cinquecento, not my pic but one off ebay, reg painted out]

[joejoelowlow]

cheers for all the replies guys, liking the led idea as i like having 2 reverse lights.

Thanks all!!

[mk2cossie]

As far as the Mot goes, the 3rd/high level brake light isn't an obligatory brake light, so can be used for the fog light as it is indeed central.

Whether it's legal is a different matter, as the Mot isn't checking that the vehicle complies with Constructions and Use regs


As for testers failing high level brake lights for not working, thats just them not reading the fail criteria properly

[Rich]

Sept 29, 2014 12:50:25 GMT mk2cossie said:

As far as the Mot goes, the 3rd/high level brake light isn't an obligatory brake light, so can be used for the fog light as it is indeed central.

Whether it's legal is a different matter, as the Mot isn't checking that the vehicle complies with Constructions and Use regs


As for testers failing high level brake lights for not working, thats just them not reading the fail criteria properly

As far as I can tell, they are tested and must work

www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000201.htm

[mk2cossie]

Sept 29, 2014 18:22:45 GMT Rich said:

Sept 29, 2014 12:50:25 GMT mk2cossie said:

As far as the Mot goes, the 3rd/high level brake light isn't an obligatory brake light, so can be used for the fog light as it is indeed central.

Whether it's legal is a different matter, as the Mot isn't checking that the vehicle complies with Constructions and Use regs


As for testers failing high level brake lights for not working, thats just them not reading the fail criteria properly

As far as I can tell, they are tested and must work

www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000201.htm

Its the part the says obligatory and then says its the nearside and offside lights. Doesnt mention that the extra is definately a brake light.
If its not working, its not a fail either.
I'd pass it working as a foglight, but then thats down to how I've read and interpreted the manual I guess

[Rich]

Sept 29, 2014 21:03:24 GMT mk2cossie said:

Sept 29, 2014 18:22:45 GMT Rich said:

As far as I can tell, they are tested and must work

www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000201.htm

Its the part the says obligatory and then says its the nearside and offside lights. Doesnt mention that the extra is definately a brake light.
If its not working, its not a fail either.
I'd pass it working as a foglight, but then thats down to how I've read and interpreted the manual I guess

A red lamp dead central in the middle of the top of the boot is clearly a brake lamp, additional or not.
Testers discretion I guess.
Either way it's an awful place for a foglamp IMO.

[mk2cossie]

[/quote]A red lamp dead central in the middle of the top of the boot is clearly a brake lamp, additional or not.
Testers discretion I guess.
Either way it's an awful place for a foglamp IMO. [/quote]

I'm not doubting its not the best place, but legal and MoT standards don't go hand in hand I've come to realise in the time I've been in the trade