Mad project idea - An economical Austin Princess

[djefk]

I am thinking about my first project for when I return home from Asia and it may well be wedge-shaped.

I love these cars for some reason that even I don't understand, although they were always a bit slow. My plan is to get an early 4 cylinder version with the B series engine and make it fast enough for modern fun use (including high speed cruising)but also more economical (say a target of 35+ mpg to start off with)

My question is, lots have been written about how to power tune these engines, but what about economy tuning? Has anyone got any experience of really economical modified B series engines?

My thoughts were to start with an MGB lump (it will fit the transverse layout with some swapping of parts) and go from there. From David Vizard's book on the A series he recommended larger exhaust valves while keeping the inlets standard and a single SU (late design with integral float chamber), I wonder if this might work on the B with some porting and polishing / raised compression to 9.5:1 or so.

I was thinking of uprated electronic ignition with an Aldon's fast road distributor or similar with a slightly more aggressive advance curve, also retaining the MGB exhaust manifold as it actually is a pretty free-flowing design. Then ideally fabricating an exhaust from a (used) small-bore MGB one for optimum noise levels

Thoughts welcome! Only proviso, no engine swaps as I don't want to get involved in trial and error fitting just to start with, although I accept that could be a cheaper option. If I'm honest I want to see what I can do with the B series on a budget first

[THE_Liam]

What about a diesel conversion? Sod all wiring, just mounts and shafts really? I'd be looking at dropping in a PSA XUD, 150bhp with some easy tweaks and 50mpg on veg oil.

[djefk]

Just edited my original post Liam, don't want to get into engine swaps just yet, I'm after a good old fashioned engine rebuild plan to collect bits for using ebay etc. over the time remaining before I return.

[penski]

Or use the rover 2 litre diesel - aren't they an evolution of the same block?

*n

[monkeep]

efficiency is the same as power, just at a different engine speed and throttle opening - you're trying to extract the maximum energy from the fuel at a given condition.
Thinking of how you would extract most power, you'd want the best mixing of a precisely controlled fuel/air mix at the best volumetric efficiency possible at your desired engine speed reliably ignited at the right time for a complete burn.
I would suggest thinking of fitting some form of fuel injection to an improved inlet manifold as well as electronic ignition with a curve to closely match the engine.

Of course, it will need to either go on the rolling road, or you'll have to "create" some method of measuring how the engine is running in real driving conditions, so that you can tune it more accurately...

How far do you want to go??

[djefk]

Thanks for your input Monkeep - That's probably stage 2 I'd imagine as I'm looking for things that can be done fairly easily (i.e. in a fairly tried, trusted and cheap fashion) to begin with, using standard or modified BL parts where possible. I was thinking that many small gains should add up to a 15 - 20% increase in power and economy and as mentioned in the modified Princess thread that Volksangyl started a while back - I'm pretty certain that as the car as standard is under-powered yet very high-geared for a 4 speed gearbox equipped car, getting these kind of results would mean you now wouldn't have to work the engine hard through the gears to make reasonable progress and the engine should now be more efficient at higher revs / when cruising.

Ideally it would be great if I can lay my hands on a good used fast road head by Peter Burgess or someone similar who knows how to modify the ports and westlake combustion chambers on these properly as I think that'd be 2/3 of the battle won straight away, although as mentioned I'm wondering if larger 'xorst valves would make much of a difference while retaining the standard sized inlets and the MGB cam, which is slightly fruitier than the Princess one but still very mild.

[sowen]

I'd say look into something like Megajolt and the Ford EDIS coilpack ignition system for the sparky side, should be quite easy and straightforward to adapt onto the B-series. Then maybe get a wideband lambda sensor to monitor the fuel side, should help to indicate where improvements could be gained in normal driving? Also worth looking at getting the head skimmed to bring the compression up.

[djefk]

Interesting, what does that ignition setup cost compared to a £90 fast road distributor then and how hard is it to install and set up? Any ideas of what gains I could expect?

On the lambda sensor, that's a great shout and shouldn't be hard to do, that way if I did want to go FI in future I could have a better, closed-loop setup.

[dodgerover]

If you want economy I would go for a straight lpg conversion (ditching the petrol side altogether), raise the compression ratio massively to take advantage of lpg's higher octane rating and fit a mega squirt to control the ignition (and injection if you want to go multi point) I would have thought 60 mpg equivalent would be easily achievable.
Also aren't the later princesses fitted with an O series engine?

[bortaf]

IMHO and IME if you want good economy you need injection, go straight there, fitting carbs then injection is a lot of potential fuel waisted in making half steps to your goal, no point is getting 35MPG is you wasited a 1000 miles worth of fuel money on a set of carbs you later change for FI.
Of course if the challenge is the whole point and not saving money then have a look here for tuning tips on the B series
www.mginfo.co.uk/upgrades4mgs/Engines/tuning_the_b_Series.html

[THE_Liam]

To be honest it seems to me like besides an engine swap, you could spend a lot of money for a fairly marginal improvement. I'd be inclined to get the carbs, timing and ignition set up properly by an expert, give it all a damn good service and save the rest of the money for fuel.

Just my 2p

[djefk]

Bortaf I hear you, what is the simplest / cost-effective route to a decent injection setup in that case, I can't seem to find a reliable "how to" thread or article anywhere - I'm a carb man because that's all I've ever known.

[Woofwoof]

As said go EFI, in actual fact I'd dump the 'B' Series and look at a complete transplant, maybe a nice Honda 1.8/2.0 engine & box?

[sowen]

Nov 12, 2014 13:46:37 GMT djefk said:

Interesting, what does that ignition setup cost compared to a £90 fast road distributor then and how hard is it to install and set up? Any ideas of what gains I could expect?

On the lambda sensor, that's a great shout and shouldn't be hard to do, that way if I did want to go FI in future I could have a better, closed-loop setup.

This is a generic schematic of the Ford EDIS setup, it's almost entirely standalone so that you can physically run the engine, all it needs is a form of ecu to control the advance which is where Megajolt, or for a lot more money Megasquirt comes in.



Have a look here trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d59.html, should give you a rough idea on pricing of a basic Megajolt setup. If you shop around or go scrapyard diving you can get the physical parts for the conversion much much cheaper

I've been through carbs and Megajolt on a few cars in the past, and have sold up and am now going full Megasquirt efi on my Rover SD1, similar reasons to you, improved economy (hopefully) with maybe better power/drive-ability, and with the possibility of running lpg off it too in the future.

I bought a generic wideband lambda kit for one of my projects years ago, and I move the kit between the cars as I go and tune them. It really is one of the best things I've invested in for monitoring the running of my project engines.

The benefits of these aftermarket control systems is that they can be lifted from one car/project to another, and are well known with pretty good tech/knowledge support.

[djefk]

Interesting post and link Sowen. So why the price difference between MS and MJ? I assume greater functionality?

Can you describe the simplest setup you'd go for as a starting point, eg what's the difference and benefits of a MAP sensor over a TP sensor etc.

[steveo3002]

Nov 12, 2014 14:28:06 GMT djefk said:

Bortaf I hear you, what is the simplest / cost-effective route to a decent injection setup in that case, I can't seem to find a reliable "how to" thread or article anywhere - I'm a carb man because that's all I've ever known.

spend more money trying to make an old engine powerfull and economical and it still wont be as good as a modern engine

[sowen]

Megajolt is the most basic basic system, can only cope with spark and designed to control the Ford EDIS setup. Megasquirt is vast in comparison, fuel and ignition as a minimum, with far greater control and features. My Megajolt was MAP, simply plug a small hose into the manifold after the throttle, fit the crank trigger wheel and sensor, mount the coilpacks, and run some wires between the lot.

Megasquirt is something else entirely, I've now got the parts and am making a loom around a spare engine, hoping to have it running over the next few months. For now I'll be running my SD1 on a more modern fuel only injection system lifted from a Discovery and using the Megasquirt to control the ignition until the engine loom is made and I've got the software settings worked out.

I've gone through step by step from carbs with points/condensor when I first started driving upto now where I'm playing with efi, it's really not that hard if you want to learn

[mylittletony]

I'm with penski on this one, the b-series turned into the O-series and they share a lot with the prima/perkins (wiki fact) which was developed into the L-series (more trusay). These were used up to mid 2000s in MG and Rover saloons. 100hp, 50mpg, easily tuned to 120hp, simple, robust and running MOTed cars can be had for £400 (or less)

Or, the O-series was also developed into the M and then T series which are injected and come with turbos in the Rover coupe etc.

If you're keen on efficiency, 16v FI or diesel really is the only way to go. If you want tinkerable old tech (I know you), then that's different...

EDIT: oh, and a conversion to a running FI system or TD will be no more work than converting an outdated engine to do the same, someone's done the work for you.

[joem83]

I think I would be putting something like this in & then trying to get the MPG from that point:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/rover-spares-or-repairs-/151472046703?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item234470026f

[dodgerover]

I'm sure perkins prima has been done before.