hario
Part of things
S202 C300STD
Posts: 421
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Dec 16, 2014 16:09:10 GMT
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To use the engine ecu with the electronic injection pump you would have to dewire the entire car as it is all very integrated and uses canBUS, it has been done on STD but it doesn't look easy in the slightest.
The mecahnical pump has a pipe fitting for manifold pressure rerence, this is adjusted for max boost & off boost fuelling simply with a spanner and locknut..
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*S202 C300TD Wagon* Installed: OM606 & 722.6, Evo6 IC, S600AMG callipers & 345mm rotors. No catz. Leatherish seats.. Rust.. Future: DIY manifolds & turbo compound build. Built IP, & some kind of software. Less rust..
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Dec 17, 2014 22:04:37 GMT
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Kario, from you saying you can pick up up an OM605 engine, an OM602 injection pump and a 6 speed gearbox for £650 I think I might leave my donor alone and take a chance on an engine and pump - no gearbox as I want to try to hook up the column-shift as Dez correctly deduces. Then try to find somewhere or some catalogue which has Merc engines, gearboxes and bellhousings lying about so I can figure out the parts combo9s that work.
Off to search the parts and the information now. As I make progress i'll update my thread accordingly. First challenge will be knocking through the existing garage to get to the big shed at the bottom of the garden and finishing off my Vopo MZ that looks like an exploded diagram all over the floor there at the moment.
Cheers guys
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hario
Part of things
S202 C300STD
Posts: 421
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Dec 18, 2014 16:29:48 GMT
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Kario makes me sound like a Frosties eating girl...
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*S202 C300TD Wagon* Installed: OM606 & 722.6, Evo6 IC, S600AMG callipers & 345mm rotors. No catz. Leatherish seats.. Rust.. Future: DIY manifolds & turbo compound build. Built IP, & some kind of software. Less rust..
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Dec 18, 2014 17:09:12 GMT
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Yes - but this one is direct-injected & intercooled - as opposed to it's older IDI brother. Also full electronic Lucas pump. However there's apparantly a Sprinter engine management for these that doesn't have an immobilizer and pretty much works as a "standalone" ECU. as far as i have read into that... I think it's the same pump used on the OM605 (C250TD) as well. So - maybe there's a possibility on the horizon... But don't take my word - it's all hear-say, I don't have any 1st-hand informations on that. But maybe it's enough to get you started! I'm all in for more info, since I'm most probaly going to try to fit a OM606 Turbodiesel to my Coupé And I'm not going the "lazy" way of adding a mechanical pump... Which of course would be another possibility to run a C250 engine DieselMeken sells ALDA conversion kits to make any n/a pump turbo-ready. IIRC it's not even that expensive... Blablabla - I'm watching this thread Dez: /8s without the braces had a reinforced firewall (thicker material)!! They certainly have a purpose...
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Dec 18, 2014 21:43:31 GMT
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Kario makes me sound like a Frosties eating girl... Whoops sorry hario. In the meantime I've been hoovering up information off here: www.superturbodiesel.com/Unfortunately I can't ask them anything yet as my registration for the above is still waiting to be approved. @turbodieselweasel. what's your reasoning in using the non mechanical pump? Aren't you affeared of the electrics being hit with an EMP Seriously, are you planning to utilise other aspects of the ECU? I ask as, tart that I am, looking at the alphabet of acronyms on the C250 dashboard I start to think, hmm, I could utilise the ABS, ASR and others that I'd never heard of till last night when I read the manual and now think I can't live without since they're already in the donor and free. Then I think, No, I'll be tinkering forever. Make the pump mechanical, get it in and keep the car simple and true to the '60s without the paranoia of some electronic component leaving me stuck at the side of the road. I still can't get the E290 engine out of my head - not for a transplant but it doesn't seem to fit any particular need so I assume I'm missing something. Not particularly powerful nor economical. Direct injectionj so not using up old stock. What's its purpose? And thanks all once again. I couldn't even contemplate such a swap (I'll do it myself now, not farm out) if I didn't have the expertise here to draw upon.
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Dec 18, 2014 21:53:10 GMT
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I've got my OM605 running on an earlier OM602 mechanical pump, and have a spare mechanical pump from a Ssangyong Musso 2.9td. I've not got to the stage of it driving yet, but from reading the forums, the mechanical pump will struggle to make the same power as the EDC pump as originally fitted to the OM605. There are a number of ways around it, depending on your budget and skill levels.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:34:24 GMT
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The machanical pumps have smaler pump elements (5.5 as opposed to 6mm on the E-pumps), which ultimately means less fuel = less power. However they can be swapped over - if you have a pump test-bench to adjust them (properly). Also take into account that the 4-valve turbodiesels are intercooled - for full power & longeviy & economie you'd best be scratching your head and find a spot for an intercooler. Mercedes totaly missed the diesel-pioneer-train in the 90's - I don't know what happened... Still using pre-chamber technology at the verge of the millenium - I guess the 290 DI engine was either an experiement to gain experience with DI engines or just something to show progress. I don't know... But: despite it's "bad" stats it's strong as an ox from the bottom of the rev range and sounds like a big truck engine. Very enjoyable, actually! madmog: mainly for simplicity (yes!). From what I have gathered right now, there's not THAT much complication once you removed the immobilizer from the engine ECU. And if engine & gearbox controllers can communicate, there'S also no need for an expensive aftermarket gearbox controller... There are two ways to run these engines: The common route. Make it fully mechanical: - mechanical pump with bigger elements (most go straigt to 7 or 7.5mm elements) -- ALDA conversion (boost sensitive max fuel advance to prevent severe smoking) - boost controlled turbo - manual gearbox, 5- or 6-speed / or old 4-spd. auto The route less taken: - keep it electronic -- engine & gearbox ECUs - remove immobilizer - keep electronic 5-spd Or course this also needs stuff like electronic speedo conversion etc. For a post-apocalyptic EMP-proof car you better buy a W123 or /8... Realistically a (my) W124 as an awefull lot of electronics on board allready. What does it matter to have some more... I'm no big fan of electronics - but they work. And they do theyr work well. And for me it's a new playground - so I'm taking the challenge of keeping it electronic. And me occupied with a project - I need that! Cheers, Jan
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Dec 19, 2014 19:48:42 GMT
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Peugeot were still using IDI till the commonrail engines came in in the late 90's.
The E class competitor to the 525 TDS was always said to be better on fuel but a fair chunk too, not sure if that was because it was a bigger engine more suited to the 1600 kg it was moving around or not though!
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Dec 19, 2014 21:11:41 GMT
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{edit} madmog: mainly for simplicity (yes!). From what I have gathered right now, there's not THAT much complication once you removed the immobilizer from the engine ECU. And if engine & gearbox controllers can communicate, there'S also no need for an expensive aftermarket gearbox controller... There are two ways to run these engines: The common route. Make it fully mechanical: {edit} The route less taken: - keep it electronic -- engine & gearbox ECUs - remove immobilizer - keep electronic 5-spd For a post-apocalyptic EMP-proof car you better buy a W123 or /8... Realistically a (my) W124 as an awefull lot of electronics on board allready. What does it matter to have some more... I'm no big fan of electronics - but they work. And they do theyr work well. And for me it's a new playground - so I'm taking the challenge of keeping it electronic. And me occupied with a project - I need that! Cheers, Jan Thanks Jan - My intended recipient car is actually a /8 currently with a mongrel engine - original M180 block with unimog 404 head (single solex carb that has water and electric feeds!) - sort of post apocalyptic already. Every possible electric extra that a /8 could have it doesn't have Not even hazards (yet). So manual pump would fit nicely with that but since all the abs ASR esp stuff is sitting on the donor for free, it's tempting too. In my mind I would even consider making the engine manual pump but keeping the other electronic stuff running as, if it failed, the car would still work and be in the same situation as if I'd never utilized them. But again, the electronic pump is already there for free...
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There's a very good looking W202 C250D engine donor candidate in Pandaselecta's ebay thread.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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There's a very good looking W202 C250D engine donor candidate in Pandaselecta's ebay thread. thanks Battles I've seen that one but was looking for and found a manual. Fantastic cars for the money. Drives and feels solid like my old W124 300D but a lot nippier. Everyone reading this probably knows already but it's often a LOT cheaper to buy the whole car for an engine than just the engine off Ebay. Cheapest C250TD engines on the bay at the moment are about £1000 and probably have things removed in the smallprint (NB turbo/injection pump not included). You also get a chance to hear the engine running, even drive it somewhere for diagnostics checks and you know you have all the ancilliaries to make the engine run. Plus you get to sell stuff on at Ebay and have a car to use for a while too. And you get to dismantle a car without worrying about how to put it back together again which takes the pressure off learning. This is the car battles means. NB At the bottom of the ad it sneakily says +VAT so price not £579 but £695 www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Benz-c250-TD-1998-full-12-MOT-no-advisory-fsh-drive-away-599-read-add-/111547337883?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19f8bd4c9bSeems a shame to break a good car that is probably 'the 190 of tomorrow' but it's more of a shame to buy an unknown engine and find one of the pistons is broken and you need some other expensive bits after you've fitted it to your project....
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Last Edit: Dec 22, 2014 9:32:20 GMT by madmog
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Dec 22, 2014 11:59:49 GMT
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Everyone reading this probably knows already but it's often a LOT cheaper to buy the whole car for an engine than just the engine off Ebay. I don't understand this but I benefitted massively from it when I broke a couple of W124s this year. Couldn't shift the whole cars at £300 but I got £350 for each of the engines and gearboxes, plus another £500-odd for the interiors. Not so much bangernomics as bizzareonomics. Loving what you're doing to the W114 by the way madmog.
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Last Edit: Dec 22, 2014 12:00:41 GMT by Battles
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sowen
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,245
Club RR Member Number: 24
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Dec 22, 2014 13:24:53 GMT
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I got my C250td engine complete with all ancillaries and manual gearbox for something around £350 off ebay, add £150 for the injection pump and it was running on the garage floor.
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Dec 23, 2014 16:26:21 GMT
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I'm all in for more info, since I'm most probaly going to try to fit a OM606 Turbodiesel to my Coupé And I'm not going the "lazy" way of adding a mechanical pump... Which of course would be another possibility to run a C250 engine DieselMeken sells ALDA conversion kits to make any n/a pump turbo-ready. IIRC it's not even that expensive... Blablabla - I'm watching this thread I was talking with Martyn at www.m-bv8conversions.co.uk/ regarding ecus and so on. he's convinced me to go with your route Ie keeping the electronic pump. He hacks the ECU to deal with the immobilizer but not the autobox. If you get stuck he might be an option for you. I'm guessing that you've seen this already: Ole Fejer on www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-Gearbox-Controller-722-6-ver-2 who makes a standalone autobox controller. Not of use to me with the manual but might be an option for you
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Dec 24, 2014 15:57:58 GMT
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Hi! Yes, I've been in contact with both of them allready That's the "-remove immobilizer" in the list above I think with FBS3 (shampoo bottle key) this is the only possble way to bypass the immobilizer to run the stock ECUs. Another thing I don't like is the EGR - which must be cheated to not get the ECU runing in limp mode... But that's rather simple to do: www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-W210-OM606-962-EGR-DeleteCheers, Jan
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,153
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Dec 29, 2014 20:31:27 GMT
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Will you take advantage of any of the other electronic stuff from the ECU: such as ASR?
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Most probably not... As this would require replacing the ABS, ABS-unit, a shed-load of wiring and worst: rear wheel sensors on each side, routing a truck load of brake lines etc. etc. etc. - that's just too much. I'll keep the old ASD/hydraulich locking diff - that's fine enough. I have thought about the ASR. Very briefly. Very.
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