Starting problems

[BT]

Hello retro rides, I thought I would ask do someone could share their wealth of knowledge with me.

I recently bought a new van (which may appear in the readers rides at some point if I can sort this out).

The van was bought as a non runner. I was aware that there was a fault with the starter relay as 12v was not making it to the coil on the starter. Since buying the van I have sorted this and 12 is making its way to the coil in order to start the van.

However I have another fault in the starting system.

I get in the van, key goes in, the dash lights come on and the heater light stays on for quite a long time for some reason. Now if i try to start the engine I hear a click and the heater light goes out but the van will not start. If I try again sometimes it will start some times it will not but eventually it does start.

When it does start it is a super laboured effort from the starter with a slow revolution initially which then gains momentum and the van has always started very quickly once the starter motor is engaged.

Once the van does start the battery light stays illuminated for quite some time. It did however go out after a while.

My assumption is that there is a fault in either the battery or the starter.

Is it possible that the battery could have a dead cell or some other fault (I know they can get pretty complex) therefore showing 12V when off and 13V when running but having a large drop in voltage when the starter is engaged?

Is there a chance that my terminals are carbonated causing a poor connection on the battery and starter?

Is there a chance that there is a fault in my starter motor somewhere?

For any further information, the van has sat for 18 months and had an intermittent starting fault (turned out to be related to the starter relay which is now sorted) before the van was laid up. Since being laid up the starting problem got gradually worse until the relay completely have up the ghost, once the relay packed in the owner bumped it when ever it needed to be moved.

I am at a bit of a loss as to what to do.

Any help or suggestions would be excellent.

Thank you all very much in advance.

[dodgerover]

It sounds like bad connections (earths probably) somewhere, I would start by going through all of them and making sure they are clean and tight. It also sounds like the battery could be on its last legs - can you try it with another one?

[colnerov]

Hi, there could also be an alternator/regulator fault. There should be more than 13V once it's running, especially after a laboured start. But that could also be down to the bad connections suggested, so check all them first. Afterwards check the voltages there should be at least 14V after a start.

Colin

[squonk]

Give us a clue as to the make and year of the van, it may help with diagnosis!!

The length of time the glow plugs are active for on some vehicles is sometimes controlled by an ambient temperature and not just a timer relay.

Typically a diesel engine needs to crank at a minimum of around 180 rpm to produce sufficient heat rise to enable combustion to occur. If yours is cranking slowly it will be either an earth problem, a battery problem or a starter problem. Easy to check for an earth problem - clip a (good quality) jump lead to a clean part of the engine block and to the battery negative terminal. Try cranking from cold and see if the speed is improved.

As for the battery, charge it for 24 hours, leave it off for 24 hours and then measure the voltage across its terminals. It should be around 12.5 Volts. If it is below this it is likely the battery is failing. Take it to a supplier and have it drop tested to confirm.

As for the alternator light, the alternator needs to be rotating at a specific speed before the charge light will go out. If the engine idle is low or the belt is slipping either could prevent the light from turning off. At approx 1200 rpm the alternator should be charging at around 14.5 Volts. If the alternator is charging and the light is still on it is likely that it is faulty.

[BT]

Hello chaos and thank you all very much for your replies. As of yet I have not had chance to put any of this into practice due to preparing for a very early start tomorrow morning. Hopefully Sunday I will be able to have a better go at things. I can however add the following which I will also edit into my original post.

Vehicle - 1998 Mercedes Vito 108D 2.3.

I left the van for 24 hours. Initial start up was troublesome with around 5 attempts before the starter motor would turn. Once the starter motor turned the engine started straight away. The battery light was still on at this point.

I turned the van off and back on again. Once again the starter did not turn until the 4th or 5th turn of the key. Once it did it jumped straight into life. This time I waited for the battery light to go off. Once I tapped the throttle the light went off.

At this point I turned the van off, started it again and it started first time trying. The battery light was on, tapped the throttle and it went off.

Each time I Rev the van. Very slightly at that. Possibly up to 1500RPM for a split second the light goes off. If I do not do this the light stays on and is a little troublesome to engage the starter motor again.

Just to clarify as soon as the start motor engages and becomes live the engine starts up straight away. I am not struggling with repeated cranking, just the starter motor not cranking!

[DavidB]

Sounds like an earth problem. Put a jump lead on the engine block to the body - the mounts are rubber and the engine doesn't earth through them.

[squonk]

Oct 2, 2015 21:30:08 GMT BT said:

Vehicle - 1998 Mercedes Vito 108D 2.3.

Hmmmm....... seem to remember lots of people warning you not to get one of these (myself included)

Don't worry, once you've sorted this problem out there will be plenty more to follow! The money pit is about to open and swallow your entire income!!!

[optimusprime]

Just because a battery is showing good voltage,don't mean its got enough amps ......

[BT]

Oct 3, 2015 11:24:18 GMT squonk said:

Oct 2, 2015 21:30:08 GMT BT said:

Vehicle - 1998 Mercedes Vito 108D 2.3.

Hmmmm....... seem to remember lots of people warning you not to get one of these (myself included)

Don't worry, once you've sorted this problem out there will be plenty more to follow! The money pit is about to open and swallow your entire income!!!

Haha I did update that thread with the news that I had listened to everyone's advice. And bought one anyway. Sometimes I even annoy myself!

[BT]

New battery has not solved the problem. Battery's for these things aren't cheap and it's still a problem.

Removal and clean up of the starter motor next in order?

[ChasR]

Have you tried the makeshift earth via a jumper cable?

Does the car turned over or not?

[squonk]

Oct 15, 2015 17:41:15 GMT BT said:

New battery has not solved the problem. Battery's for these things aren't cheap and it's still a problem.

Removal and clean up of the starter motor next in order?

Have you actually tried any of the suggestions made or are you just randomly replacing parts without any diagnosis?

[BT]

Hello, sorry I wasn't very helpful with my response was I.

Yes, I tried the booster earth cable which did not seem to solve the problem.

I had the alternator output checked by a specialist who confirmed that was ok and not at fault.

I took my battery into a specialist and had that checked with some fancy device. The starting amps had dropped (can't remember the exact reading) from the 600 it was when new but it still determined it as a health battery. After reading a few articles and with advice from the specialist it was concluded the starting amps were too low for the van. I replaced the battery but the problem still persists. This was only replaced after the original battery had been deemed unsuitable and a potential cause of the problems.

The problem with the van in response to a reply above is that when the key is turned to engage the starter all that can be heard is a "clunk" from the starter. The starter is receiving a good power feed and we now know the battery is not dropping voltage when the key is turned. We have tried to hit the starter and solenoid when the engagement sound is made in case something inside is gettin jammed but this has proved unrewarding.

Sometimes the van will start straigh up first time, another time it wil click continuously and start after up to ten attempts.

I think my next port of call will be to remove the starter motor and have this assessed by a specialist. Sound like a fair conclusion?

[squonk]

Yes, now you have explained what you have done it does sound very much like the starter could have a fault.

[BT]

Yeah sorry about that. Was in a bit of a rush first time round.

I think I have found some more details which may help someone diagnose the fault. Or possibly even point me in the correct direction.

From cold the van takes a few tries before the starter engages, when it does it is very laboured. Once it has started once and got warm the van will start first time, every time.

I can not help but think my problems are directly linked to my starter motor. Am I best off just buying a new one and replacing my old one? I have a trip planned for next week at around 1000 miles.

[dodgerover]

If it was a transit I would say the clutch/ dmf is on the way out which I turn fills the starter with dust and causes similar problems. There will be less power required to turn the engine when hot hence it working better (I think)

[BT]

That makes perfect sense!

I am going to whip it out tomorrow and see what it looks like, if there is no luck here I will just order another one online tomorrow and for it during the week.

[BT]

Problem solved it would seem...

After a new battery, alternator pulled out and tested and almost replacing the starter motor it would appear that the fault was in the ignition switch, not exactly sure what but since changing some sections of the wiring and re-terminating a few connections the van now appears to crunch every time, first time.