1970 Jaguar XJ6

[django]

[django]

Hey jan
I need to translate my Netherlands with google translate,
it reads a bit strange

I've also had need much time to get the engine running
The cop did it but do not, see forum, MS.de
among jaguar xjr6 supercharger
I also had many MS interference wrong sparks, sparks without resistance,
Difficult start, large aperture VR,,, have reduced from 1.2mm to 0.8mm
now US responds to the 2 blue vr pots on MS board and the original VR sensor and AJ16 60-1 wiel

[django]

[django]

I use this MS 1 in my car with a normal aj 16 4liter, as I drive on petrol.
The sparks I have a right here contacpunten distributor [BMW 728] driven to.
the cop ignition I'm going to use first engine in the XJR

[janm]

Hi django,


I had a look at your posts at the megasquirt.de forum, seems like the MS install is very rarely the straightforward operation, most often will take some considerable time to sort things out.


Nice pictures of both the test rig and the already finished n/a AJ16 swap. Proper job done!




My own project has right now turned into a kind of unintended reversed direction. When out for a ride a couple of days ago there suddenly was some weird, squealing sound coming from under the hood. Visual inspection didn’t show anything but the sound seemed to come from the supercharger or it’s surroundings.

Removed the inlet manifold and the sc and found, very fortunately, that it was not the epoxy fillings for the silencer slots that had come loose, instead only a cracked vacuum hose for the sc bypass actuator.

Lesson learned – never reuse old such hoses, at least not in places only visible through an endoscope.






As the sc now happened to be removed I will take the opportunity to do some service and modifications to it. Will also probably remove the epoxy and open up the silencer slots again, for the peace of mind and little bit less whining.


To keep the car rolling when doing this I’ve bolted a inlet manifold from the n/a 3.6 AJ6 to the engine.

Very temporarily.


/Cheers

[django]

May 16, 2016 19:18:19 GMT django said:

May 16, 2016 19:12:21 GMT django said:

hoi jan

you notice that much difference in power ??,, without charger
Or he pulls almost the same  ?

[janm]

May 16, 2016 19:21:00 GMT django said:

May 16, 2016 19:18:19 GMT django said:

Would say that it is like the engine has been very effectively castrated, hugh difference. Probably only what to be expected, 8.5 comp and tame cam timing.
Haven’t bothered to do any changes to the fuel or spark settings, still have the sc maps as I’m using the injectors/fuel rail from the sc manifold.

I´m right now examining the internal parts of the M90. I was prepared to change the snout bearings as a preventive service but it seems like there is more of a reason to instead change the rotor ball bearings, belive there is a slightly excessive axial play. Not a very easy operation what I understand, timing the gears and rotors.

And doing that, I could just as well do a total rebuild.

IOW, this will take some time!

/cheers

[django]

hoi jan
I look at your rotor, I see little coating fatigue Ifound this on my rotor
it is not at all rotors
would sit on all rotors, it can mean less damage
it did not look like barn damage
this is where you're worried about ?
I think it's kind of cavitation

[janm]

May 18, 2016 18:45:05 GMT django said:

hoi jan
I look at your rotor, I see little coating fatigue Ifound this on my rotor
it is not at all rotors
would sit on all rotors, it can mean less damage
it did not look like barn damage
this is where you're worried about ?
I think it's kind of cavitation

Django,


I’ve done some web research on the scratched coating topic and the common believe seems to be that scratches on the outer edge of the rotors indicate worn needle bearings. Scratches or scuffing in the end plates is caused by worn ball bearings as they are the only parts controlling the axial forces. Too much play there will possibly also mess up the timing between the rotors, cause direct contact and have the coating coming off.

There is of course other possible reasons I can think of like age, common corrosion, insufficient air filters, excessive heat, overspinning and so on. Caviation as mentioned could maybe be of concern too.
Much debated is if water or water/meth injection or fuel from a draw through carb is damaging the coating.


Signs of worn ball bearings.





Maybe not clearly visible in the pics but the rotors have rubbed together in some places. No deep grooves in the end plates, more like being polished a bit.

Axial play in the rotors when new should be, unconfirmed numbers, 0.003”. When the backlash reaches 0.007”, the rotors will begin to scuff the end plates. I’ve measured the old bearings to be something like the 0.007” but that was when removed, suppose it’s a tiny bit tighter when assembled.

Anyway, even if there is some damage to both the rotors and the case I think it’s worth investing in new bearings and seals, have ordered a kit.


Assembly will be kind of interesting. Advice is most welcome....


/cheers

[django]

hallo jan
yes the bearings are still a lot of space
Now just try to get the timing of the rotors
these gears splined ? whether they should be bullied ??
hopefully you get the good apart

cheers

[jimg]

Hi Jan,

Just a bit off topic, Fantastic project by the way, ...can you tell me when you say you cut 1" off the rear springs, was this when compressed ? Or could you tell me in number of coils ? also did you reduce the ride height at the front , how many coils ?

I am building a XJC ( series 2) with XJR6 engine, still basically a stripped out body shell, so want to get these mods in now , and it appears to me that the AJ16 engine is lighter than the XK unit ?

[janm]

May 29, 2016 10:41:42 GMT django said:

hallo jan
yes the bearings are still a lot of space
Now just try to get the timing of the rotors
these gears splined ? whether they should be bullied ??
hopefully you get the good apart

cheers

Unfortunately no splines, the relation between the rotors has to be exactly measured and in some way locked in the correct positions while pressing on the gears.

May 29, 2016 12:22:27 GMT jimg said:

Hi Jan,

Just a bit off topic, Fantastic project by the way, ...can you tell me when you say you cut 1" off the rear springs, was this when compressed ? Or could you tell me in number of coils ? also did you reduce the ride height at the front , how many coils ?

I am building a XJC ( series 2) with XJR6 engine, still basically a stripped out body shell, so want to get these mods in now , and it appears to me that the AJ16 engine is lighter than the XK unit ?

Thank’s Jim for your kind comment.

I’ve had a look at your thread and I think that your XJC will be awesome, keep up the work!

I also noticed that you are a bit reluctant about the learning time of the Megasquirt and I can fully understand that, it is a confusing world.
I’m not the right person to recommend what ECU to use, the original or the MS or any other brand but if going MS I think you can cut a few corners with the help of members of this and other forums, there is a number of similar projects going on.

And about the coils,

The complete rear end I have is from a XJS, came with some kind of JaguarSport shocks that had the piston shaft/rod upper end not welded but screwed into the ”eye”. It was possible to shorten it some 20 – 25 mm and make new threads without decreasing the stroke or travel. Did not cut anything of the coils but modified and moved the collars so that the lenght of the compressed coil was the same as before although the complete unit now is shorter.

The front coils were cut but I can’t quite recall how much, could have been 1.5 turn. Were also trimmed and, using a torch, bent in the ends.

After I had swapped the 2.8 XK engine to the AJ6 and especally to the AJ16sc I think the front became a little more soft or saggy. Without knowing, I very much doubt that the AJ16sc, with all the accessories, is of less weight than the XK engine.

Regards
Jan

[django]

hallo
jan
how it ended with the rims.
I have also tried
the rims were heavier weight
I felt the car was more affected by vibrations
I then tried a mixture bbs wheels
Suddenly the problem with the vibration was gone
The steel wheels were made professionally
the bbs are much larger 8x16 and 7x16
but are much lighter in weight

[liamr889]

Jun 4, 2016 19:54:59 GMT django said:

hallo
jan
how it ended with the rims.
I have also tried
the rims were heavier weight
I felt the car was more affected by vibrations
I then tried a mixture bbs wheels
Suddenly the problem with the vibration was gone
The steel wheels were made professionally
the bbs are much larger 8x16 and 7x16
but are much lighter in weight

Love those steel wheels

[janm]

Jun 4, 2016 19:54:59 GMT django said:

hallo
jan
how it ended with the rims.
I have also tried
the rims were heavier weight
I felt the car was more affected by vibrations
I then tried a mixture bbs wheels
Suddenly the problem with the vibration was gone
The steel wheels were made professionally
the bbs are much larger 8x16 and 7x16
but are much lighter in weight

Pic of the wheel mod. From 6” to 7” and 225/60/15 tyres.





No big difference in appearence. As intended with this car.

But agree with liam that your widened steel rims looks very fine.


About the supercharger rebuild it has, as suspected, taken some time. Made the special pulley puller that’s needed, the snout bearings and seal are changed, no problems. New needle roller bearings has been pressed in, the old ones were quite bad, had some 0.1 – 0.15 mm radial play and were in hindsight probably the most urgent part to replace. New ball bearings for the rotors has been pressed into the central board and will hopefully stay there. With the help of Loctite and a bit of tapping to build a new securing ridge.
The two rotor seals are, for some strange reason, of different outer dimensions, one is 35mm, the other 33.5mm but, according to the seller of this kit, more often 34mm (??) like one of the seals that were supplied. Had to enlarge the hole in the plate 0.5mm.
Rotor end shafts is pressed into the central plate bearings with the estimated rotor ends play.

Still struggling with the real PITA, how to press on the gears with the rotors in the very exact position. Have tried a couple of times now using different methods but so far not good enough.

Guess I’ll have to make some kind of special locking tool for this.


Aim for a first test within a week or two, new 80 mm throttle body and bit more sc porting.


/cheers

[django]

hi Jan
you can find it also interesting    this is a rear axle from lister , you see here the reinforcements
they have done it differently.......this I am jealous
I try to copy the link
buildgallery.kwecars.com/KWE-Jaguars/Demo-Gallery/i-vSKBM7W/A

[Knugcab]

Tuff bil!

[janm]

A very much delayed update on the supercharger issues.


What from the beginning started as nothing worse than a cracked vacuum hose for the sc bypass valve led to the decision to, as I had had things pretty much apart before finding out about the hose, also change the snout bearings, had a complete set lying. However, further examination of the sc indicated that both the front and rear rotor bearings were quite bad and ought to be replaced.

And, of course, with things apart, I could just as well make the adapter for the new 80 mm throttle body and do some additional porting of the inlet/outlet and the rest of the air ducts.

I had also become increasingly tired of the loud whining or rather screaming sound due to the epoxi filled silencer slots, decided to open them up again.


Would take a couple of weeks at most was the very optimistic believe.


The snout bearings were not that complicated to replace. Made a special puller for the pulley and mainly followed one very thorough instruction found at the Youtube.
An observation is that the outer race of the inner bearing is, as I understand it, floating in the snout, a quite sturdy spring is pushing it away from the front bearing and will eleminate potential slack that could be felt. Some amount of forward force on the pulley is needed when testing for a worn bearing. Suppose it’s quite common that this bearing goes bad, heavy load and fast spinning with poor oil circulation. Was a lot of greyish sludge between the seal and the bearing.

The rear rotor needle bearings replacement is only a matter of, with proper support to the housing, pressing out the old cups and fit the new ones in a suitable position . There is no stopping edges, possible to do it from either direction.

In an earlier post I’ve already described the problems involved when changing the rotor ball bearings and seals. With the help of a home made locking tool I belive that the gears now finally sits in an acceptable position.

An adaptor plate was made for the new throttle body and lots of time was spent with the sand paper rolls to widen the rest of the ducts. The general idea was that there would be no point having the larger TB if not the entire system had a similar square area.





Same for the supercharger. The outlet was opened up a few millimeters more on each side to achieve the approximate 50 square centimeters area. The inlet walls were already dangerously thin, not much could be done without affecting the stability for the bearings or going through the walls.





And now, the big question – what was the outcome of those modifications.

The answer must honestly be that I still don’t really know. About the eventual power gains there was no obvious success for sure. I have compared lots of log files before / after for boost, rpm acceleration, air temperature and so on but haven’t found any significant differences.
The very subjective feeling is that the engine is a bit more happy in the very high revs, have activated the hard rev limiter at 6000 for safety, but at the same time I suspect that there could be a slight loss in the low register. Suppose that’s probably logical in some way, less sealing time inside the sc and unplugged silencer slots.
A dyno run would give the answer but not a very important matter, the engine is running great and for a while I’ll leave things as they are.

Strictly mechanical everything seems to function ok so far. No strange rubbing noise from the rotors, a more smooth and quiet operation with the new bearings.

The almost screaming supercharger sound is still present at wide open th. but reduced to a more bearable whining at part throttle.



A brief sound example, fresh from the dash cam:





/cheers

[Smiler]

I need one...

[edwardbear]

Sounds great