Ritchie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 765
Club RR Member Number: 12
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Body & Paint ThreadRitchie
@ritchie
Club Retro Rides Member 12
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Mar 19, 2019 16:13:00 GMT
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Any tips for butt welding a rear pillar skin together? I’m planning on replacing both quarters on a Mk1 Escort and obviously want to keep them as smooth as possible at the join. I was thinking one spot at a time and try and cool as much as possible with a wet cloth. I’ll not really manage to get behind the panel much.
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Mar 19, 2019 16:50:36 GMT
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Glen - I don't think so but anyone who uses our postcode in a satnav arrives outside my garage door (all 43 properties that use the same code are all on my plot according to the plods who programme satnavs) In their defence, this is down to Royal Mail PAF (Postcode Address File) data rather than the satnav developers. Each individual postcode record contains a pair of co-ordinates call "Grid Easting" and "Grid Northing" which are the distance in metres from a reference point off the bottom left corner of Lands End somewhere. The satnav software will convert that to a lat-long position (or use merged OS data), but it'll still be the same for all properties in a given postcode. In a built-up area that won't matter as the properties will be close together, but of course they're further apart once out into the country. Even if the satnav contained the "premise-level" data (which it probably doesn't due to size constraints) I believe that the location data is still only accurate at postcode level. (With apologies for taking the thread off-topic). The lane where I am is like this too. Good for when I give people directions to my housewares the satnav stops at my gate, but not so good when everyone else looking for other houses turns into my drive.
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2019 16:52:00 GMT by jonsey
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Mar 19, 2019 16:57:29 GMT
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In the next few weeks I will be getting all the suspension components of my Cortina blasted and then sprayed in epoxy. Can anyone recommend a sprayable satin black chassis paint. I'd prefer this to a gloss finish. Thanks Phil
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Mar 19, 2019 20:02:52 GMT
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Just add a matting agent to gloss paint.
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Mar 19, 2019 20:30:01 GMT
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Any tips for butt welding a rear pillar skin together? I’m planning on replacing both quarters on a Mk1 Escort and obviously want to keep them as smooth as possible at the join. I was thinking one spot at a time and try and cool as much as possible with a wet cloth. I’ll not really manage to get behind the panel much. I am assuming that you are mig welding the join - so once you have it aligned & tacked in a few places - one spot at time is good idea but rotate your weld area - move on 100mm or so before returning to the previous weld - last thing I would use is a wet cloth - which is likely to not only introduce rust to the rear of the weld where you cannot access it readily but you also stand a good chance of creating distortion rather than reducing it - you would be far better with a airline & blow gun - a few seconds of cold air once you complete each weld spot should keep it in check - you need to consider the same principle when grinding / dressing back the weld bead too that this process does not generate too much heat in one area. I appreciate that you would like a smooth joint across the panels however you are likely to be taking some risks in attempting to achieve this - main one being in dressing the weld bead back to a flush / smooth joint you remove so much of the weld bead that there is little structural strength left in it. Secondly you also run the risk of over thinning the panels immediately to either side of the weld bead in your pursuit of a flush / smooth joint this would also leave the joint area structurally compromised. Far better for the joint area to be slightly rebated either side of weld and then you can leave the weld bead slightly high of the join and achieve a good structural density to the bead - even better you could also consider joggling the pillar side that the wing adjoins to therefore allowing for a good rebated weld to be applied. If you have disliking of polyester fillers your rebated joint could always be lead loaded then profiled back (which is a factory method) - don't know how to lead load ? - there are good handful of YouTube vids out there - materials are readily available and it's fairly easy to turn your hand to - by all means respond if you have any further questions - Chris
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2019 20:36:35 GMT by Deleted
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Mar 19, 2019 20:34:49 GMT
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Ritchie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 765
Club RR Member Number: 12
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Body & Paint ThreadRitchie
@ritchie
Club Retro Rides Member 12
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Mar 19, 2019 21:44:37 GMT
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Any tips for butt welding a rear pillar skin together? I’m planning on replacing both quarters on a Mk1 Escort and obviously want to keep them as smooth as possible at the join. I was thinking one spot at a time and try and cool as much as possible with a wet cloth. I’ll not really manage to get behind the panel much. I am assuming that you are mig welding the join - so once you have it aligned & tacked in a few places - one spot at time is good idea but rotate your weld area - move on 100mm or so before returning to the previous weld - last thing I would use is a wet cloth - which is likely to not only introduce rust to the rear of the weld where you cannot access it readily but you also stand a good chance of creating distortion rather than reducing it - you would be far better with a airline & blow gun - a few seconds of cold air once you complete each weld spot should keep it in check - you need to consider the same principle when grinding / dressing back the weld bead too that this process does not generate too much heat in one area. I appreciate that you would like a smooth joint across the panels however you are likely to be taking some risks in attempting to achieve this - main one being in dressing the weld bead back to a flush / smooth joint you remove so much of the weld bead that there is little structural strength left in it. Secondly you also run the risk of over thinning the panels immediately to either side of the weld bead in your pursuit of a flush / smooth joint this would also leave the joint area structurally compromised. Far better for the joint area to be slightly rebated either side of weld and then you can leave the weld bead slightly high of the join and achieve a good structural density to the bead - even better you could also consider joggling the pillar side that the wing adjoins to therefore allowing for a good rebated weld to be applied. If you have disliking of polyester fillers your rebated joint could always be lead loaded then profiled back (which is a factory method) - don't know how to lead load ? - there are good handful of YouTube vids out there - materials are readily available and it's fairly easy to turn your hand to - by all means respond if you have any further questions - Chris Thanks for that. I was of the understanding that joggling panels wasn’t a good idea due to temperature distortion being visible though the paint? The lead loading sounds reasonable and I have done a bit before on an old Alvis so might be worth a bash. Thanks.
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Mar 19, 2019 22:13:50 GMT
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Thanks Grumpy. They'll be painted over my brothers and he's got all the kit so I'll go for 2k👍
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Mar 19, 2019 22:20:10 GMT
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I am assuming that you are mig welding the join - so once you have it aligned & tacked in a few places - one spot at time is good idea but rotate your weld area - move on 100mm or so before returning to the previous weld - last thing I would use is a wet cloth - which is likely to not only introduce rust to the rear of the weld where you cannot access it readily but you also stand a good chance of creating distortion rather than reducing it - you would be far better with a airline & blow gun - a few seconds of cold air once you complete each weld spot should keep it in check - you need to consider the same principle when grinding / dressing back the weld bead too that this process does not generate too much heat in one area. I appreciate that you would like a smooth joint across the panels however you are likely to be taking some risks in attempting to achieve this - main one being in dressing the weld bead back to a flush / smooth joint you remove so much of the weld bead that there is little structural strength left in it. Secondly you also run the risk of over thinning the panels immediately to either side of the weld bead in your pursuit of a flush / smooth joint this would also leave the joint area structurally compromised. Far better for the joint area to be slightly rebated either side of weld and then you can leave the weld bead slightly high of the join and achieve a good structural density to the bead - even better you could also consider joggling the pillar side that the wing adjoins to therefore allowing for a good rebated weld to be applied. If you have disliking of polyester fillers your rebated joint could always be lead loaded then profiled back (which is a factory method) - don't know how to lead load ? - there are good handful of YouTube vids out there - materials are readily available and it's fairly easy to turn your hand to - by all means respond if you have any further questions - Chris Thanks for that. I was of the understanding that joggling panels wasn’t a good idea due to temperature distortion being visible though the paint? The lead loading sounds reasonable and I have done a bit before on an old Alvis so might be worth a bash. Thanks. Must be a old wives tale or something from a sea dog - has in 40 odd years of restoring classics (a fair few of those years professionally too) I have never heard of panel distortion from a joggled repair that is visible through the paint - that might be the case if the repair has not been undertaken correctly - but never had this type of repair come back to me with any complaint yet alone the fact that they can view the distortion through the paint
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Last Edit: Mar 19, 2019 22:21:07 GMT by Deleted
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having a step would make the panel MORE rigid, surely
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Mar 20, 2019 12:21:13 GMT
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Ok. Next question with obvious answers. What is the difference between a D/A sander and an orbital sander?
Can anyone recommend an electric unit 150mm pad dia., with dust extractor vent to connect to a vacuum cleaner. Yes, I know that the Mirka units are excellent but for a single car job sadly, I can't justify the cost.
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Mar 20, 2019 13:28:34 GMT
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I have a Bosch electric one - its good if a little (relative to air power) heavy. SanderI also have a (very) cheap air powered one (from Lidl) which is very good and much lighter. I suspect a decent brand air powered one will be best but you probably don't have to spend megabucks on it. EDIT This is a pretty cheap one which is probably passable quality. Air DA
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Mar 20, 2019 14:11:15 GMT
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Ok. Next question with obvious answers. What is the difference between a D/A sander and an orbital sander? Can anyone recommend an electric unit 150mm pad dia., with dust extractor vent to connect to a vacuum cleaner. Yes, I know that the Mirka units are excellent but for a single car job sadly, I can't justify the cost. There the same thing D/A stands for 'Dual Action' because the disc spins on a offset creating a orbit rather than fixed radius has the dics spins Air powered ones can be had very cheap but I don't recommend them - they are ok but you have to constantly run the compressor - there is not too much choice in 150mm pad size + vacuum in the electric range - now you say you cant justify the cost - is that because they are listed at £350 - £500 + on E Bay - pretty sure you can get a basic Mirka 150mm system for circa £250 ish - hunt out 'Brighton Autopaints' at the NEC Restoration Show and see what deals they have on - the alternative is to buy one use it for the one job and then sell it on - thing is you wont - they are such a nice piece of kit own and so useful - that you wont want to part with it
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Last Edit: Mar 20, 2019 14:12:12 GMT by Deleted
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Mar 20, 2019 15:33:50 GMT
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I was considering this Makita BO6030 which appears to take 150mm discs and would also connect to my garage vacuum cleaner. www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-BO6030-Random-Orbit-Sander/dp/B00005Q7CF/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8I am researching this so I have some idea of what is available when I get to the show, and for what price. It is very noticeable that there are no second-hand Mirka units on Fleabay.. I can guess why. Chris- Thanks as usual for your insight, already bookmarked Autopaints Brighton for a visit, along with just about every auto-refinishing supplier and tool company.
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Mar 30, 2019 14:48:48 GMT
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Chris - You may remember that at the Restoration Show, I asked you about bonding some areas of the car body. I have been doing some tests with the Kent Rapid Bond that I got hold of, by trying to bond two small pieces of galvanised steel (actually roofing sheet), by overlapping an area about 1 inch wide by 3 inches long and then flexing across the join after about 8 hours. To be honest I have been a little disappointed with the test results as the two pieces, to my view, on flexing, came apart rather to easily, after 5 or 6 bends. This could be be to a variety of reasons. 1. Incorrect prep of the metal although I rubbed them over with a wire brush and wiped them with acetone, 2. insufficient mixing (I only have the one mixing nozzle at the moment and mixed up 'manually' with a spatula) 3. Adhesive spread too thinly or not applied as a bead 4. not suitable for thle metal used for testing 5. Product past its sell by date as there is no date of the tube. Or, I may just be expecting too much from the adhesive!! I would be grateful for any thoughts that you can offer regarding this. I am also waiting for a response from the technical dept of Fastmovers regarding their products following your previous post.
Addition - Tried another test going back to bare metal and using a slightly thicker layer of adhesive and left overnight in a warm place. The two pieces still parted after flexing about 7/8 times. The cured adhesive is rock hard, just not holding onto the metal. Do you have any thoughts please?
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Last Edit: Apr 1, 2019 15:51:08 GMT by Badwolf
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keyring
Part of things
Posts: 913
Club RR Member Number: 47
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Body & Paint Threadkeyring
@keyring
Club Retro Rides Member 47
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I’ve tried using the search function in this thread, but I’ve not had much success with it, so hopefully you won’t mind, but I’m going to get the stuff sorted on the patrol before doing the big amounts of work on the golf... So I’ve got the box section sill to remove and reweld in place on one side, the rear arches to trim and plate, and a few patches on the boot floor. To check I’ve got the right products in my lists before ordering them... Zintec sheet Bilt Hamber etchweld - use this both as a weld through primer and as an etch primer? I already have a u-pol seam sealer Top coat on boot floor/outer arch is a rattle can of the colour I got made up at a local spray store, along with a can of clear Dinitrol 4941 for the inner arches, underside and sills Dinitol ml cavity wax for any cavities No reason to use an epoxy primer on top of the etch I assume, just go straight in with paint? And spray all joins with the weld through primer after cleaning it up before welding, and then spray over the weld afterwards, then seam sealer, then top coat/4941 I think that was my only concerns Thanks
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Chris - You may remember that at the Restoration Show, I asked you about bonding some areas of the car body. I have been doing some tests with the Kent Rapid Bond that I got hold of, by trying to bond two small pieces of galvanised steel (actually roofing sheet), by overlapping an area about 1 inch wide by 3 inches long and then flexing across the join after about 8 hours. To be honest I have been a little disappointed with the test results as the two pieces, to my view, on flexing, came apart rather to easily, after 5 or 6 bends. This could be be to a variety of reasons. 1. Incorrect prep of the metal although I rubbed them over with a wire brush and wiped them with acetone, 2. insufficient mixing (I only have the one mixing nozzle at the moment and mixed up 'manually' with a spatula) 3. Adhesive spread too thinly or not applied as a bead 4. not suitable for thle metal used for testing 5. Product past its sell by date as there is no date of the tube. Or, I may just be expecting too much from the adhesive!! I would be grateful for any thoughts that you can offer regarding this. I am also waiting for a response from the technical dept of Fastmovers regarding their products following your previous post. Addition - Tried another test going back to bare metal and using a slightly thicker layer of adhesive and left overnight in a warm place. The two pieces still parted after flexing about 7/8 times. The cured adhesive is rock hard, just not holding onto the metal. Do you have any thoughts please?
The metal on either side should be thoroughly keyed up to ensure that bonding has something to bed into - I would use something like P80's - full strength of the bonding material is attained at 24 hours + and finally it all depends on what forces you subjecting the join to - the bonding agent is there to join two metals together - in vehicle production this is largely being used on outer panels which although they flex and move with the vehicle structure would not be subject to shear testing that you are undertaking
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I’ve tried using the search function in this thread, but I’ve not had much success with it, so hopefully you won’t mind, but I’m going to get the stuff sorted on the patrol before doing the big amounts of work on the golf... So I’ve got the box section sill to remove and reweld in place on one side, the rear arches to trim and plate, and a few patches on the boot floor. To check I’ve got the right products in my lists before ordering them... Zintec sheet Bilt Hamber etchweld - use this both as a weld through primer and as an etch primer? I already have a u-pol seam sealer Top coat on boot floor/outer arch is a rattle can of the colour I got made up at a local spray store, along with a can of clear Dinitrol 4941 for the inner arches, underside and sills Dinitol ml cavity wax for any cavities No reason to use an epoxy primer on top of the etch I assume, just go straight in with paint? And spray all joins with the weld through primer after cleaning it up before welding, and then spray over the weld afterwards, then seam sealer, then top coat/4941 I think that was my only concerns Thanks Only thing I would change is that I highly recommend using a primer over the etching primer prior to final paint
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Thanks Chris. Glad thatit could be my over enthusiastic testing that could be the problem. I have heard back from Fastmovers who also recommend the two adhesives you mentioned in your earlier post, along with their very expensive 400ml tubes of FMT6325 I have ordered the FMT6306-MMA2 to test and will report back in due course in case it helps you or anyone else.
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Thanks Chris. Glad thatit could be my over enthusiastic testing that could be the problem. I have heard back from Fastmovers who also recommend the two adhesives you mentioned in your earlier post, along with their very expensive 400ml tubes of FMT6325 I have ordered the FMT6306-MMA2 to test and will report back in due course in case it helps you or anyone else. Shear testing on body panels would be based upon how the bonded joints deflect / absorb impact energy rather than fatigue testing by attempting to work the panels either side of bonded joint
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Last Edit: Apr 4, 2019 8:55:20 GMT by Deleted
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