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Jun 27, 2018 22:57:53 GMT
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Hi folks, I'm new to the forum, and probably like most folks with a modded classic, I'm at my wits end with the "new" regs. i have just taxed my 59 minor convertible today on line and there was no check box for any sort of declaration to be made. just the exact same procedure as before... a few clicks and it was done, even though it's been on sorn for the best part of 3 years. does anyone have any experience in the new regs....at what point and where does one make the " substantially modified" declaration
thanks Doddy.
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Last Edit: Jun 27, 2018 22:59:39 GMT by doddy
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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I have a feeling that in the pages of blurb you clicked through there’s something that says “by continuing I declare that it isn’t substantially modified”...
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Jun 28, 2018 17:27:11 GMT
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Hi Phil. I can assure you there was nothing... I have had my 59'Morris convertible sorned for 3 years now and I specifically taxed it to see the new procedure. I'll be putting it back on sorn in a few days so I'll be able to have another go at taxing it in a week or so.. When I do I'll screen shot every page and post them up...
The reason I ask is I have a hevily modified 52 oxford MO project that'll be going into paint very shortly, and if I need to Iva it I would rather do any remedial work prior to paint... Thanks
Doddy
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Rich G
Posted a lot
Keyboard Worrier
Posts: 1,059
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Jun 28, 2018 20:49:29 GMT
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Best nip over to Rods-n-Sods site and read the legal section there carefully. Also the thread in the "On Topic" section which is titled "How to get a Pro Street Pop through BIVA" (currently on page2 of the section).
If after that you're still confused, contact Kapri on R&S who can explain far better than I about the legal side of things.
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Last Edit: Jun 28, 2018 20:49:56 GMT by Rich G
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Jun 28, 2018 21:50:08 GMT
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Does the page say no mot history when you check its status ? read somewhere uptil til April next year they will automatically assume its MOT exempt , its to do with the enforcement system needing time to adjust ANPR etc, you can always go to the Post office and fill in a form if you want but also heard that PO do nothing with the form afterwards!
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retired with too many projects!
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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My understanding is that for the tax there is no such declaration. Iva is for registering a vehicle & the whole points system is for deciding this status. This of coures means if the vehicle is already registered then it does not need to go for an IVA. The rules concerning continued use of an already registered vehicle on the road are the 'constructions & use' regulations.
There is a list of notifiable changes on the v5, these are typically colour, engine size, engine number etc. These are the notifiable changes. Changing the body around to fit bigger engines etc is not a notifiable change (or it would be on the logbook).
No doubt the 'fear factory' will be along to this post trying to apply 'registering a vehicle' legislation to an already registered vehicle. I find most of these people are those who can't actually do any modifications and are out to shout loudly about applying the wrong legislation.
Enjoy your MM with free tax without guilt.
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Last Edit: Jun 29, 2018 7:58:14 GMT by ftz313
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Jun 29, 2018 20:40:32 GMT
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The already registered arguement is wrong I'm afraid, Construction and Use will cover a CORRECTLY registered vehicle.Once you do the mods you lose the ID(reg), its no longer CORRECTLY registered, you need to read the points system and as said before registration and MOT two seperate issues .
MOT change to exemption status is covered by 'substantially altered',
Registration entitlement is radically altered, look at Blackpop racing thread Q53 POP it was already registered but the mods meant it lost its ID
V5SC notifible changes , complete red herring here ,you cant hide behind a list on a document that could be several versions behind for starters,and you have to be entitled to hold that document, make radical changes as listed on points changes you are no longer entitled to that document.
One set of rules for MOT, one for ID (reg) look at the original statement released it even says MOT status does not affect whether vehicle is correctly registered. The law is layered , one set of rules for one area don't exempt you from the next , you have a licence legally allowing you to drive doesnt allow to break driving laws just because you have a legal licence you have a passport to enter or leave a country , does not mean you can take illegal substances or objects with you .
You cannot apply one law or set of rules in isolation.
There will be a declaration as to whether the vehicle is entitled to be MOT exempt , they have changed the rules covering even pre 1960 vehicles that previously did not have that requirement.
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Last Edit: Jun 29, 2018 20:42:21 GMT by Implandy
retired with too many projects!
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The reason I ask is I have a hevily modified 52 oxford MO project that'll be going into paint very shortly, and if I need to Iva it I would rather do any remedial work prior to paint... My advice would be to do the bodywork tweaks prior to paint; nows the time to make it IVA’able, you’d be gutted if they clamp down later.. It would mainly mean making sure you lights are at the right hights, and making sure the bodywork has a 2.5mm radius...easy enough. At this point, as the authorities have not proven to be that keen on enforcing of the rules (it would be easy to catch everyone if they really wanted to), it’s up to you whether you volunteer your car to the test or not... you could choose to build it, drive it, and not have to cry if you get pulled up later (as only mods to bolt on items would be needed)
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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The already registered arguement is wrong I'm afraid, Construction and Use will cover a CORRECTLY registered vehicle.Once you do the mods you lose the ID(reg), its no longer CORRECTLY registered, you need to read the points system and as said before registration and MOT two seperate issues . MOT change to exemption status is covered by 'substantially altered', Registration entitlement is radically altered, look at Blackpop racing thread Q53 POP it was already registered but the mods meant it lost its ID V5SC notifible changes , complete red herring here ,you cant hide behind a list on a document that could be several versions behind for starters,and you have to be entitled to hold that document, make radical changes as listed on points changes you are no longer entitled to that document. One set of rules for MOT, one for ID (reg) look at the original statement released it even says MOT status does not affect whether vehicle is correctly registered. The law is layered , one set of rules for one area don't exempt you from the next , you have a licence legally allowing you to drive doesnt allow to break driving laws just because you have a legal licence you have a passport to enter or leave a country , does not mean you can take illegal substances or objects with you . You cannot apply one law or set of rules in isolation. There will be a declaration as to whether the vehicle is entitled to be MOT exempt , they have changed the rules covering even pre 1960 vehicles that previously did not have that requirement. Oh dear. Notifiable changes are where a declaration has to be made, colour, engine size, no of seats etc & is where a declared change (you have to sign for it) is made. Registering a vehicle legislation & the points system is for 'registering a vehicle' & isn't applied retrospectively to an already registered vehicle. If it was to be then this would be a notifiable change & would require a declaration to be made. It isn't so therefore c&u regs are what determines continued use of the already registered vehicle (height of indicators etc). I get that there is a lot of 'noise' around this area & my own personal view is that a vehicle must retain its 'silhouette' but that is an argument for another day. However you are still tying to apply the wrong legislation to an already registered vehicle & it is getting a bit tedious. Ps a monocoque is not a space frame & vice versa. I.e of unitary construction (constructed as one) so therefore I won't comment anymore on that line.
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No i'm not applying the incorrect leglislation, you clearly still don't understand the principle that modification affects the original registration entitlement, changes notifable on the V5 are not classed as 'radical' 1. Why else would there be a points system? 2. Why would it be awarding points for original parts ? 3. What are they originaal to if its a new vehicle ?
its not just Kit Cars, 4. If Blackpop simply filled out the notifiable changes on his V5 why did he get his registration cancelled?
It was rescinded/cancelled and called for inspection via IVA , it was originally registered in 1953 long before these rules.
They even if you follow the link provide a form to do it, a V627/1 form if you've rebuilt or substantially changed a vehicle. It asks for far more than notifiable V5 changes and why would it exist if it wasn't to assist the process of correct registration, you have to name the source so for example Jag irs and viva ifs under a Ford Pop isn't on V5 but it is on V627/1a, add Rover V8 and an Auto gearbox which are notifiable on V5 but also notifiable on V627/1
Even professional vehicle converters have been caught , pre registering vehicles in an attempt to get around testing. then making changes that effect the registration details that are not on V5. The range is from single vehicle to low volume conversions, so much so that the OEMS now on certain vehicles built as stage vehicles will not provide the details to enable regisration)
I work in the bodybuilding and vehicle conversion business everything from Bus and Coach to Electric conversions even Limo and Hearse conversions which really go beyond what most OEM's include in their bodybuilder and converter guidelines . Retro conversion of a Van to a Minibus can be fraught with issues.Number of seats, windows , adding a cassette type door, cutting away floor for tail lift. Ever seen the list of modifications to an AE ambulance ? theres a good reason why they don't use 2nd hand chassis cabs or vans even pre registered unused.
The test is not something to be afraid of its just a necessity of modern motoring and whats tedious is that you can't grasp that re registration is something that happens to vehicles other than Kit Cars.
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retired with too many projects!
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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No i'm not applying the incorrect leglislation, you clearly still don't understand the principle that modification affects the original registration entitlement, changes notifable on the V5 are not classed as 'radical' more, more, lots more irrelevance. Not only are you trying to apply 'registering a vehicle legislation' to an already registered vehicle you are now trying to apply the 'The Road Vehicles (approval) Regulation 2009' to vehicles registered before that ! A very brief investigation on my part takes me straight to the relevant clause which says 'Regulations do not apply to old vehicles' 5-(2)-d. All the weight (in a legal sense) is on whether a vehicle is already registered. Therefore you can't go applying 'registering a vehicle' legislation to an already registered vehicle (in this case before 2009). Now I will accept that vehicles registered after 2009 are subject to the regulations that came out in 2009 & I think that is where you are basing a lot of your argument (as you state you work in this area). I don't think I need to revisit this thread but I hope this has been helpful although it has probably undermined a lot of what your understanding was. I.
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Last Edit: Jul 4, 2018 1:32:03 GMT by ftz313
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Look at IVA 1c application form and the guidance notes then, I note you ignored the questions posed
A – AMATEUR BUILT A vehicle, the majority of which was constructed, assembled or, if previously registered in the UK, structurally modified by you or by someone on your behalf who is not in the business of building motor vehicles and which is for your personal use.
The guidance notes are July 2018 so bang up to date and no where can I see that the rules do not apply to vehicles built before 2009 ,it even mentions previously registered in the UK , again why would it be necessary to put a 1953 Ford pop thru the test if what you say is true.
A radically altered vehicle is no longer registered , it is classed as a new build , so the current regulations apply , only recently they tried to impose current emissions to such builds but the weight of opinion meant that that change was not implemented.
My understanding of the regulations is undiminished by reading the Gov UK site , a vehicle registration is only legal if the vehicle remains standard or modifications remain within the notifiable on V5, indeed most 'substantial changes' which affect the MOT exemption rules fall within notifiable.
If the changes are in the scope of radically altered then they fall under the IVA rules irrespective of when the vehicle was built, and the registration is no longer legal or valid.
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retired with too many projects!
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To the OP; now that ftz has stated that he will not be checking back into this thread...
The problem with forums is that people state opinions as fact, leading others to misunderstand (and potentially spread the same ‘facts’ elswhere)
You may already correctly understand the IVA, and therefore may have phased out to the disagreement above, if not: Implandy is 100% correct in all his statements... If a previously registered vehicle is modified so that it fails against the points system, it looses its identity and effectively needs to be re-registered (noting that as soon as you cut about a unibody car you fail before you take any other points into consideration - check out my build thread to see how I would know)
I think there’s a bit of denial about the IVA requirements as it encroaches into our hobby; with people looking for loopholes, and reading the rules in creative ways..
As I said before; I would build the metal work to pass the IVA requirements, then decide what to do. Most people seems to ignore it to be honest (which is a choice that I don’t have a problem with)...I’ve chosen to do my car by the book as I want to share the build freely...the fear of some muppet reporting an incorrectly registered build is very real...
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Referencing v726/1 which is part of legislation brought in, in 2009 & then retrospectively trying to apply it to vehicles registered before that, when it clearly says that it does not apply to these previously registered vehicles (basically before 2009) is quite a serious matter. I've even directed you to this section but yet you continue to put fear & worry into those that don't have a clear understanding.
There is a voluntary IVA that can be undertaken & it's not for me to comment on those that wish to do so. I realise that may be the course of action some feel most comfortable taking. I am not criticising anyone.
This points system is for determining the age of a vehicle & that is why it is under the section 'registering a vehicle'. There are lots of vehicles out there previously registered but have lost their registration for reasons unknown.
However I will counter misinformation. All this 'he said, she said' nonsense is really not on.
I've directed you to & explained why it is such but yet you continue to make personal derogatory remarks. That's why retro rides is pretty guff now sadly.
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Last Edit: Jul 5, 2018 18:38:56 GMT by ftz313
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pigeons and chess come to mind...I’m out
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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pigeons and chess come to mind...I’m out Sorry about that. Yes trying to apply the modern rules of chess when it's already registered as a pigeon just about sums this up.
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ftz313, almost all of your information is wrong. Implandy is pretty much spot on.
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-( 2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap V8 Humber Hawk 1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD 1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,678
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Flat Earthers will never relent even if you walked them all the way round and they did not fall off - When you get back from a circumnavigation they would just argue you walked in a circle thereby proving them correct.
Anyone who thinks that IVA is some sort of voluntary registration process is just a lost cause.
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Hi, I can see why our resident expert gave up getting involved in these discussions because of some people putting their own interpretation on it and then arguing the toss.
Colin
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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It's not a case of arguing the toss or being a flatearther. I've come back with references & directed you to the legislation, explained the legislation and why it applies to certain vehicles and not others but yet get 'you're wrong'. 'You can’t use the Statutory IVA scheme if your vehicle has been registered before in the UK - you’ll need to use Voluntary IVA instead.' For info the link to voluntary IVA www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approvalYou can keep saying 'I'm wrong' & I'll keep coming back with links to why I'm not. I'd be uncomfortable stating something without having the understanding to explain why I'm saying that. At least I'm coming back with the legislation. If you don't understand it I suggest you keep schtum sadly.
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