lord13
Part of things
Posts: 536
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that link actually destroys your argument mate, scroll down the page a little and you'll see a statement that pretty much says what every other person on here will tell you...if you curse word about with the bodyshell you'll need an IVA...I have copy/pasted it in case you missed it...
"Use Statutory IVA instead if your vehicle:
hasn’t been registered in the UK before has been registered in the UK, but has been modified significantly since then"
so.... to be clear .... if you 'modify significantly' your vehicle, it IS legally required to have an IVA.
I have been through this with people many many times... I have argued the finer points and also tried to find loopholes, I have been in long and heavy discussion with the boss man of the DVSA and it all boils down to the fact that if you cut and modify your bodyshell or chassis in a way that detracts from the original build specifications, the identity of that bodyshell or chassis is null and void and you will be legally required to re-register it via an IVA . No other option. No loopholes. No circumnavigating the rules....
You are allowed to repair as per original specification, and are also allowed to box in open sections, triangulate crossmembers, and add strengthening gussets etc...within reason...but if you cut into it and alter any part of the shape of any area you need an IVA, so drilling out big holes for ventilation and 'adding lightness' is out, as is cutting the bulkhead and tunnel for a bigger engine...even moving the gearlever hole back would count as the tunnel is part of the monocoque . . .
so there you go, cut the shell or chassis, and your Reg is null and void, regardless of the age of the vehicle.
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Last Edit: Jul 11, 2018 6:12:18 GMT by lord13
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,669
Club RR Member Number: 39
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" Use Statutory IVA instead if your vehicle: hasn’t been registered in the UK before has been registered in the UK, but has been modified significantly since then" No circumnavigating the rules.... I see what you did there
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tofufi
South West
Posts: 1,452
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No i'm not applying the incorrect leglislation, you clearly still don't understand the principle that modification affects the original registration entitlement, changes notifable on the V5 are not classed as 'radical' more, more, lots more irrelevance. Not only are you trying to apply 'registering a vehicle legislation' to an already registered vehicle you are now trying to apply the 'The Road Vehicles (approval) Regulation 2009' to vehicles registered before that ! A very brief investigation on my part takes me straight to the relevant clause which says 'Regulations do not apply to old vehicles' 5-(2)-d. All the weight (in a legal sense) is on whether a vehicle is already registered. Therefore you can't go applying 'registering a vehicle' legislation to an already registered vehicle (in this case before 2009). If you look in the definitions, you'll see old vehicles defined. In the eyes of DVLA, a radically altered vehicle is NOT the same vehicle it started life as, but is a new vehicle - therefore the above doesn't apply. This paragraph is included to allow imports of vehicles more than 10 years old without requiring them to have components etc marked to EU standards - i.e. Japanese or American imports, where the domestic legislation differs significantly from the UNECE regulations we use (for the most part) in Europe.
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Jul 11, 2018 13:34:50 GMT
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The regs you previously pointed us at related to type approval, nothing to do with whether a vehicle had a right to it's registration. As has been pointed out, once that right is gone it's BIVA time. Not IVA which has also been explained. Stop giving out duff information.
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-( 2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap V8 Humber Hawk 1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD 1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Jul 11, 2018 23:50:21 GMT
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retired with too many projects!
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Jul 14, 2018 21:47:22 GMT
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"Use Statutory IVA instead if your vehicle:
hasn’t been registered in the UK before has been registered in the UK, but has been modified significantly since then"
This relates to a vehicle that has been registered but is no longer registered hence the use of the word 'has' as opposed to 'is' & is currently going through the reregistering process and is therefore subject to the point system to determine age.
'If you look in the definitions, you'll see old vehicles defined.' rather than trying to mislead RR's can you at least have the courtesy to link to the 'legislation' so that can be cross examined.
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Jul 14, 2018 21:51:39 GMT
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Last Edit: Jul 14, 2018 21:52:28 GMT by ftz313
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Jul 14, 2018 21:55:22 GMT
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The regs you previously pointed us at related to type approval, nothing to do with whether a vehicle had a right to it's registration. As has been pointed out, once that right is gone it's BIVA time. Not IVA which has also been explained. Stop giving out duff information. Link to when a vehicle has a right to its registration or is this something your willing to quote without source
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Jul 14, 2018 22:05:04 GMT
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[/quote]If you look in the definitions, you'll see old vehicles defined. In the eyes of DVLA, a radically altered vehicle is NOT the same vehicle it started life as, but is a new vehicle - therefore the above doesn't apply. This paragraph is included to allow imports of vehicles more than 10 years old without requiring them to have components etc marked to EU standards - i.e. Japanese or American imports, where the domestic legislation differs significantly from the UNECE regulations we use (for the most part) in Europe. [/quote] eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=celex%3A32007L0046How can you apply legislation that came out of Europe in 2007 to a vehicle when it was registered before that ? (answer is you can't) This is the just of it all. You are trying to apply modern legislation (which I have no issue with in regards of regs for vehicles registered in the last ten years or so) to an already registered vehicle. There is no requirement to for this to be applied retrospectively and this is where the confusion is centred. Stop trying to apply the wrong legislation to an already registered vehicle.
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Jul 14, 2018 22:25:18 GMT
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This is a new document for historic vehicles assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/670431/vehicles-of-historical-interest-substantial-change-guidance.pdfIt lists all changes that are considered to be ‘substantially modified’ Which if you check is in line with the 8 points, that apply to non modified vehicles too. I draw attention to this as it is a very recent document , and is not as tight as the rules for non vhi vehicles, but states; A vehicle will be considered substantially changed if the technical characteristics of the main components have changed in the previous 30 years, unless the changes fall into specific categories. These main components for vehicles, other than motorcycles It then goes on to list the components, in line with the 8 points rule.... which state that when you substantially modify a vehicle beyond 8 points you lose your right to retain the existing registration, which would then require you to reregister www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehiclesThis is the part that explains that radically altered vehicles have been altered from their original specification This explains what is required to RETAIN the existing registration And if you cannot fulfill those requirements, then you need to apply for a Q plate So if you modify the chassis rails or monocoque on a vehicle, it should be a plate.... there does seem to be some grey areas but they also seem to be centred about not being found out and who will ever know.... we are now hearing of people being found out, so I guess the net is tightening, which in reality isn’t such a bad thing. It certainly makes the correctly registered vehicles worth a lot more
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ftz313
Part of things
Posts: 221
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Jul 14, 2018 22:43:53 GMT
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John-you've taken the legislation for 'registering a vehicle' and are trying to apply it to an already registered vehicle. That is why it is under the section 'registering a vehicle'.
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Jul 14, 2018 22:54:00 GMT
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John-you've taken the legislation for 'registering a vehicle' and are trying to apply it to an already registered vehicle. That is why it is under the section 'registering a vehicle'. You can’t radically alter a vehicle until it exists, If you make a Mini then change it into a Ferrari, then it has been modified. If you make a Ferrari in the first place there is no need for the modifications. If you modify outside of the allowable rules, you need to register that.... that is what this section applies to, if you modify it then you lose the registration, you then need to register it.... If this were about registering vehicles, why would every new vehicle not have a q plate?
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Jul 14, 2018 22:56:25 GMT
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And I’m not trying to apply legislation to anything, I have a correctly registered Q plate vehicle
I think you are trying to apply legislation to your belief. Have you contacted DVLA and had a discussion about it?
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Jul 14, 2018 23:27:07 GMT
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Also, with reference to the first reference I posted.
How many vehicles that are over 40 year old, and haven’t been modified in the last 30 years are there that haven’t been registered yet?
Because surely there must be enough that DVLA would produce a document to explain how to first register these vehicles.
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lord13
Part of things
Posts: 536
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johnthesparky I wouldn't bother getting hot under the collar mate, He's not listening to word anyone says, and is using a poor grasp of grammar to twist the regs to his ideals....I've been through the whole thing with the DVSA in detail, as have many others, we have all explained it to him and he still won't listen . . . Let him chop his car up, if he won't accept good help and advice then it's his problem... I can understand wholeheartedly why kapri gets grumpy at these sort of threads . . .
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The irony. You ask for a "source" after quoting the wrong information yourself. DVLA issue registrations in the uk and they can withdraw them as they see fit. It is their rules that govern this, nothing to do with type approval. If you go below 8 points (no matter how old the car) they take your registration off you. Your car is a new car as far as they are concerned. Being home built it goes for BIVA. When it passes it gets a new registration. I have three cars, one is 8 point compliant, one is a rebody to DVLA's rules and one is being built to pass BIVA even though it's ok according to you as it's an old car (an old hot rod pop. I've modified it a lot from it's chassis swap days. It wasn't correct then as it had the pop registration on it. I'm putting it right). I'm not a beginner at this, I'm 64 and been at it since I was 17. Some times you have to ask yourself if you are really correct when everyone else is wrong. Normally I would not bother with cr*p like this but I feel it's important that people have the correct information in this case as being wrong can be very expensive.
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2018 9:14:06 GMT by crockpot
Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-( 2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap V8 Humber Hawk 1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD 1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Jul 15, 2018 10:02:11 GMT
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"This points system is for determining the age of a vehicle"
what complete bollock5
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tofufi
South West
Posts: 1,452
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Jul 15, 2018 10:21:59 GMT
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eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=celex%3A32007L0046How can you apply legislation that came out of Europe in 2007 to a vehicle when it was registered before that ? (answer is you can't) This is the just of it all. You are trying to apply modern legislation (which I have no issue with in regards of regs for vehicles registered in the last ten years or so) to an already registered vehicle. There is no requirement to for this to be applied retrospectively and this is where the confusion is centred. Stop trying to apply the wrong legislation to an already registered vehicle. The whole vehicle framework directive, 2007/46, was brought out in 2007, but before that there was 2001/116. There's a new framework directive just been released which repeals 2007/46 eventually too. But I don't see how on earth that's relevant to this subject. If a vehicle is modified outside the 8 points, in the eyes of DVLA it's not the same vehicle - it's a new vehicle. Therefore it's treated as such. For what it's worth, I work in vehicle legislation for the Department for Transport.
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Last Edit: Jul 15, 2018 10:22:55 GMT by tofufi
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Jul 15, 2018 10:26:25 GMT
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"For what it's worth, I work in vehicle legislation for the Department for Transport. " So no idea what's going on at all then
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Proton Jumbuck-deceased :-( 2005 Kia Sorento the parts hauling heap V8 Humber Hawk 1948 Standard12 pickup SOLD 1953 Pop build (wifey's BIVA build).
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,669
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Jul 15, 2018 10:41:21 GMT
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