air con re gas for a retro?

[rodney]

as above , i have a l reg carlton diplomat , aircon needs a regas , what are my options? who does gas for something this old?

[discostew38]

Old gas was R12 or something like that but I wouldn't have thought a Carlton would be old enough
But if it is 134a is the modern alternative which can be used as I've done this myself with my old jag
The service ports are different but you can get an adaptor to fill it

[rodney]

yeah r12 sounds about right as its not 134a

[rodney]

just found the adapter , will get one and give it a try

[ChasR]

If the car is made for R12 there is a significant chance that the seals etc. will leak with R134a used. Due to this you have a few choices:

-Get a conversion liquid to 'condition' the system and the seals.
-Rebuild the system with new seals.

TBH it's not a bad idea to change the drier if the gas has leaked out.

Another thing. Out of the 4 cars I've done AC work on, only one worked with a simple regas. IMHO the issue may well be a leak. Finding a decent AC shop here may well work out cheaper to diagnose and regas it.

[gtviva]

Having owned Carltons from new and run them for many many years I wouldn't bother with the air con, it was complete rubbish even from new! but if you do have it done with the newer gas it would be interesting to see if it makes a difference cool wise

[Phil H]

R12 is better (in terms of its ability to cool) than R134 so if it was poor on R12, you’ll be even more disappointed on 134.

[dadstaxi]

Groupon had a half price deal with ATS for around £30 which included testing and diagnostics. I happily used it this summer and may be worth a try?

[ChasR]

What Phil H said regarding R12.

[ChasR]

If it's seen R12 I'd personally get it into a specialist. IIRC it's not just as straightforward as throwing in more gase into an R12 based system.

From memory, you have to run less gas (in grams) than you would if the car still ran on R12. I doubt many 'everyday' places know that.

That and if you have a leak a specialist will spot it almost immediately. As an example I took my sister's car to Kwik-Fit and then Motorclimate. Yes I know, but Kwik-Fit were free if the recharge didn't work. Anyway

-I went to Kwik-Fit to get the car recharged. After all, the £5k machine tells the operator what to do right? To be fair it did, ish. They regassed it, and claimed it had leaked out. When I asked about further diagnosis they said to go to an AC bloke. It would be a while before I did.
-I then checked the gas level with the Halfords AC gauge and it said it was full. So There was still gas inside despite previous claims. It did what it did with my mate before we bought the car off him. It would work for about 20 seconds, albeit take a while for those 20 seconds and then, stop again.
-Eventually the gas ran out of the car. I then went to Motorclimate. With their equipment and expertise they identified a small pinhole in the condensor. Quicker than most places I've used before; I used to use another AC place in Warwick.
Later on, when I commissioned the work to go ahead they found an oily residue within the pipes. Upon further testing the compressor was found to be shot; this is why it worked very intermittently; I think the Teflon seals dying were cited as a cause. With the rest of the system checked over, the car was fine with a new compressor and condensor and I've never remembered the car working that well.

I say that as I knew that car prior to me buying it. It's one reason I bought it, despite the fault and of course, the cost . It was previously bodged together using a secondhand AC compressor and a regas when my mate bought the car from a trader.

[nel5on]

Using LPG is still legal in some countries for aircon gas.

[romanblume]

This summer I have recharged my aircon system in Pulsar 87 by R12. Just bought in internet tube with gas and oil and one pipe. It cost 20$. By the way, you can't just replace r12 for r134, because the oil in AC compressor in R12 is mineral, but in 134 compressor oil is synt. So if you want to change r12 to r134 at first you have to full cleaning your system.

[ChasR]

Sept 9, 2018 7:24:59 GMT romanblume said:

This summer I have recharged my aircon system in Pulsar 87 by R12. Just bought in internet tube with gas and oil and one pipe. It cost 20$. By the way, you can't just replace r12 for r134, because the oil in AC compressor in R12 is mineral, but in 134 compressor oil is synt. So if you want to change r12 to r134 at first you have to full cleaning your system.

R12 is tricky to get in the UK, mainly due to it being banned.

[colnerov]

Hi, And 134a will become increasingly more difficult to get as well because they are cutting back on production and increasing the cost of it.

Colin

[adam73bgt]

Might be a bit late to the party but my L reg Jag was R134a from factory so was just able to take it to a typical ATS euromaster for a regas

I think 1992 was the crossover year for R12 to R134a? Although some manufacturers may have made the switch earlier I imagine there would have been a legislation based hard switchover point as well

[undernutter]

Sept 9, 2018 6:52:07 GMT nel5on said:

Using LPG is still legal in some countries for aircon gas.

That sounds like a good way of getting yourself on the ten o clock news for all the wrong reasons!

[colnerov]

Hi, The 'new' gas, 1234yf, being used for environmental reasons is more flammable than 134a and produces a toxic gas when burnt. You pays your money and takes your choice, or not in some cases. Oh yes, it can't be used in older systems because it operates at higher pressures.

[kevins]

Sept 24, 2018 11:41:55 GMT undernutter said:

Sept 9, 2018 6:52:07 GMT nel5on said:

Using LPG is still legal in some countries for aircon gas.

That sounds like a good way of getting yourself on the ten o clock news for all the wrong reasons!

All of it is pretty unpleasent stuff, lpg was used in some Mercedes cars originally and many people use it as a replacement for R12, the risk is if the evaorator leaks you could fill the car with gas,  you Would have to have a Pretty Poor Sense Of Smell not to notice it Though. It Is A Cheap Way Of Testing A System .

[undernutter]

The plot thickens. Has anyone come across this stuff before and can you tell me anything about it?
Is there a possibility it was there from new?

Its on a 1989 Mercedes 190e.
cheers
DH

[scimjim]

Google says

R413A (ISCEON® MO49) R413A, also known as ISCEON® MO49 , is an HFC retrofit refrigerant for R12 in direct expansion stationary air conditioning (AC) systems and medium or high temperature refrigeration.

and

R437A (Freon™/Isceon® MO49 Plus) is a HFC blend used as a retrofit refrigerant for R12 in medium and high temperature refrigeration such as automotive air conditioning systems.

From a Jag page (2006)

As a time served qualified air conditioning engineer with 20 year experience, please allow to to clarify a few facts regarding the various refrigerants and their properties and compatabilities. I hope this information will help you to decide which one is best for you.

R12 - Most Jaguars manufactured prior to 1992 had refrigerant R12 air conditioning systems as standard. (1992 was the recognised industry change-over year from refrigerant R12 to refrigerant R134a). R12 is a very efficient refrigerant, it contains larger molecules than R134a. R12 is made up of C.F.C's, (Chlorflorcarbons) which are extremely destructive to the Ozone Layer. That's why the manufacture of R12 was banned. At the time of it's demise, the only viable refrigerant available for automotive air conditioning applications was R134a.
As far as I am aware, it is not illegal to use R12 (I have a few Kilograms left in a cylinder) but releasing it into the atmosphere and manufacturing it certainly is. R12 is an inert vapour at atmospheric pressure. It is odorless and colourless. It is heavier than air and in very large concentrations will deplete oxygen and cause suffocation. Under pressure, it condenses into a liquid. Releasing R12 in liquid form can cause severe freeze burn to your skin. If R12 is burnt, phosgene is released which is better known as mustard gas.

R134a - is nowadays, the most commonly used refrigerant in automotive air conditioning systems for new vehicles. It is far less efficient than R12. It is not compatable with systems originally designed to operate with R12 unless an extensive lubrication modification is carried out on the system first. The use of R134a necessitates the use of synthetic (polyolester or P.O.E) compressor lubricant oil. R12 systems contain standard mineral lubricalting oil. Chemicals in R134a react with mineral oil and polymise it (tern it into a glue like substance). Therefore, you cannot add R134a to an R12 system without expensive retrofit modification.
R134a is an H.F.C (Hydroflurocarbon) refrigerant. It does not deplete the ozone layer but it does have properties that contribue to global warming (Greenhouse effect) similar to Carbon Dioxide. It is illegal to knowingly release R134a into the atmosphere. R134a is an inert vapour at atmospheric pressure. It is odorless and colourless. It is heavier than air and in very large concentrations will deplete oxygen and cause suffocation. Under pressure, it condenses into a liquid. Releasing R134a in liquid form can cause severe freeze burn to your skin.

R413a (not to be confused with R134a) also known as R49 - A company called Isceon developed R413a (Isceon 49) several years ago as a direct "drop in" replacement for R12. It is a far more efficient refrigerant than R134a which means your air conditioning system will cool and dehumidify the air more efficiently with R413a than it will with R134a. R413a It is a long term direct replacement for R12. It's chemical composition is known as an Azeotropic blend and it has a larger molecular structure than R134a. It has an ozone depleting property of Zero, therefore, it does not damage the ozone layer. It has similar global warming properties to R134a. It is odorless and colourless. It is heavier than air and in very large concentrations will deplete oxygen and cause suffocation. Under pressure, it condenses into a liquid. Releasing R413a in liquid form can cause severe freeze burn to your skin.
The best feature regarding the use of R413a is that absolutely no modifications at all are required to use it in either a system designed to operate with R12 or R134a. R413a is compatable with all compressor lubricating oils including mineral, P.O.E and _alchobenzene lubricants. Therefore, it can be added to any automotive air conditioning system after nothing more than a system pressure leak check and a thorough evacuation. No other parts, materials or lubricants are required.
Refrigerant R413a (R49) is slightly more expensive than refrigerant R134a. But R413a can be put straight into any automotive air conditioning system (R12 or R134a) without modification. It is far less labour intensive to use. It is therefore, much cheaper to convert your R12 system to operate on R413a than it is to convert it to use R134a.

From my proffessional experience, R413a (R49) is a far better alternative to R134a. Both my Jaguar air conditioning systems have run on it for the past five years or so and I've been extremely happy with the results. Why pay out many hundreds of pounds to convert your R12 system to a R134a system when you can add R413a to your system without modification far more cheaply. Respect due to anyone who has already converted to R134a, but is there really any point when there's a direct "drop in" replacement for R12 which is more efficient anyway?

And

R-409 (aka FX56) not to be confused with R-49. R22 blend with isobutane again, another interim refrigerant. More easily available, but being phased out.


Recent:
RS24 (Refrigerant Products Inc) = 'trade secret composition' but is widely beleived to be 98% R-134a, plus butane to carry mineral oil.