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I'm not sure they need standardising outside of the method of driving, and the charging socket. You could get into any car available today and know how to drive it. EV won't change that, other than the driverless bit.
Standardise the charging socket, and let the charger and car determine what rate they can charge at. I don't want to have to drive round different charging stations looking for the one that has my "brand"
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Had a few discussions about zero emission at point of use through work(trains mostly), and electric traction is very effective in terms of torque curve(constant) and maintenance(about 1/3 cost)..the problem is power source, current systems aren't sufficiently energy dense to match the convenience of ICE(accepting many weekly commutes could be met on a single charge for a significant proportion of the population). Curiously the plan to withdraw fossil fuels from sale isn't clear, Nett Zero emissions is targetted for 2050, but that may include carbon offsetting contributions which means petrol/diesel still being available to those who are willing to pay the tax to underwrite the offset schemes?
I have concerns that the extraction of raw materials to market batteries built around the current chemistry is neither green nor sustainable(and arguably not in the volumes needed for a worldwide EV programme)...the aluminium air battery tech looks interesting, but haven"t rrad enough on it.
As for EV classics....would love to experiment and an A40 Farina with e traction for the daily work run should be pretty much spot on...
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2014 - Audi A6 Avant 3.0Tdi Quattro 1958 - Chevrolet Apache Panel Truck 1959 - Plymouth Custom Suburban 1952 - Chevrolet 2dr Hardtop 1985 - Ford Econoline E350 Quadravan 2009 - Ovlov V70 2.5T 1970 - Cortina Mk2 Estate 2007 - Fiat Ducato LWB 120Multijet 2014 - Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi ES
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If there is no oil, there would be no EVs either. They are still exclusively made from products from the petrochemical industry. Fair point There will be oil it's just that it won't be used as fuel. Saudi are desperately trying to grow their tourist revenue as they know the oil underneath them will soon no longer be required for the same uses and in the same quantities as it is now. Russia will see lots of currently frozen Siberia become viable agricultural land and the thawing of the north east and west passages will aid their trading, as it will for China. There will be benefits for some. I just don't see consumer's being able to have any say in the transition to EV. Governments will move us to them with emission control zones, like the ulez in London and road tax and fuel duty will see ICE vehicles off the roads. The workplace parking levy, in Nottingham since 2012 and soon to be introduced to Scotland, is another measure to move is to EV or public transport. I don't see the issue as just about what fuel cars in future will use, it'll be how cars are used as well. Autonomous vehicles will be solution. You'll have an uber like system rather than leaving you car stationary when not in use, you'll just request one when you need it. That'll mean less traffic, less fuel of whatever type being used, less cars produced. Virtual offices will mean those who can can work from wherever rather than travel into work. Retro fitting batteries into classics, viewing current EV range limitations, inconvenient charging times wrongly assumes the future will be like the present in terms of how cars are used. Tansport will be revolutionised in the very near future.
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vanpeebles
Part of things
I am eastbound in pursuit of a white Lamborghini, this is not a recording.
Posts: 978
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Fair point I don't see the issue as just about what fuel cars in future will use, it'll be how cars are used as well. Autonomous vehicles will be solution. You'll have an uber like system rather than leaving you car stationary when not in use, you'll just request one when you need it. That'll mean less traffic, less fuel of whatever type being used, less cars produced. Virtual offices will mean those who can can work from wherever rather than travel into work. I think exactly the same as this really, you will just book a pod via your portable telephone to take you to work and back.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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What is comes down to is the automotive sector makes its money on options, and the ability to spec them when ordering. Standardisation impedes this so reduces profit. Electric cars are how the car industry adopts the TV and other consumer electronics model. Cathode Ray -> flat screen -> Wide screen -> 720p HD -> 1080p HD -> OLED -> 4k -> 8k . Right now people are keeping cars longer because they are relatively reliable, the electric car market opens up a regular upgrade cycle based on performance, charging cycle, distance and usability. Add in to that effectively a leasing model for new cars and you've got a constant income stream for car manufacturers, which is better than their current new model release cycle. I'd be interested to see how specific the legislation is in terms of electric cars, after all hydrogen fuel cell looks promising too. I think the problem with that is the figures involved. Dropping 500 quid on a telly every 3-5 years is fine to most people. But when you’re talking that in monthly payments, a lot of people aren’t prepared to or just can’t commit to that sort of cost. The vast majority of people don’t drive second hand cars through choice, it’s because it’s what they deem affordable and/or sensible to spend. The ‘when they filter through to the second hand market’ argument for electric cars hasn’t really worked so far, even though they’ve been around for over 10 years now. By the time they’re at price the average joe can afford, they’re at the end of their life cycle.
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I am involved with developing electric vehicles and they are great to drive particularly in cities, but there are a number of issues which will hold back take up:
Charging - This is a major hold back for many buyers, If you have a driveway with adjacent power and only ever drive a relatively short distance you are fine, everybody else at some point needs to use a charging facility and this country has no coherent policy or standardisation for these, the only people who are trying to get to grip with this are Tesla who have realised that pretty soon there will be no real reason to buy their not particularly good or advanced cars but having a good charging network exclusive to themselves will still be a good reason to buy a Tesla, of course this could be fixed by legislation making all charging points standard and universally available.
Cost - whatever way you look at it EV's cost getting on for twice the cost of a similar IC vehicle and even on this basis most manufacturers are struggling to make any return, a greater volume of vehicles will help a little but not a massive amount. Fundamentally the raw materials and manufacturing process's are expensive and if anything Higher demand makes this worse. Governments can give grants but this is not sustainable, their finance models are based on fleecing the motorist not giving us large subsidy's. At the moment EV's seem cheap to run but if you apply the same fuel taxes as for fossil fuels they don't.
Raw materials - The materials for the batteries, control gear and motors are not particularly plentiful or low Co2 to extract, in some way defeating the whole object of the exercise.
Electricity - The energy for these has to come from somewhere, in some ways this is the easy bit we know how to do, massive hydro electric and Nuclear such as in China, cover the country in wind turbines (will never be reliable enough to rely on) or perhaps even tidal, all of these though have massive cost, CO2 and are not entirely popular with the green brigade.
Fundamentally the problem is there are too many people on the planet who want to eat, keep warm and go places and nobody has a real solution, we can certainly reduce CO2, from the road transport point of view I believe the technology which will have the biggest impact is the information technology which allows people to work from home and not travel at all, cars have become a big political football but are only a tiny part of the picture, but where are the initiatives on buildings (the number of poorly insulated buildings is alarming an easy one to fix), air transport, rail, HGV's, off road vehicles etc.
On the plus side as more EV's come to the market more will be scrapped so parts for conversions to classics will get cheaper, or perhaps we will all generate our own hydrogen and fit large engines / superchargers to run our cars on it. (plus brew a special mix in a still down the garden for those special days!). Whatever they come up with someone will find a way of making it go faster..
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Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
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As our benevolent Dictator has brought up the subject of leasing let me paint you a little story on how this could spell the end of the human race. Before the end of the 18th century it was quite common for our ancestors to be born, marry and eventually step off this mortal coil all without having stepped out of their village. This brought its own challenges when it came time to finding a 'mate' as the chances were that you are going to be related to the majority of your neighbours. The advent of the industrial revolution went some way to deepening the gene pool as the chances of having an encounter with your cousin started to decrease as people started to move into Cities from the farms etc. but it is the bicycle that is credited with making the pool into an ocean as it allowed people to travel, quickly, cheaply and independently away from their usual hunting grounds in the eternal quest to get their end away. Fast forward to today and anybody, regardless of their credit score or personal leanings can, with a driving licence and a few hundred pounds, buy personal mobility enabling them to travel where ever their heart desires, the wilds of Scotland or the beauty of the Cornish coast. Now, think forward another 15 years and all of a sudden you can no longer purchase a cheap banger and travel the high ways and bye ways in search of members of the opposite sex. You have to lease a new electric vehicle. 10 year old tech will be obsolete, batteries will be worth more than the chassis and the dream of personal mobility and freedom becomes just that UNLESS you have 'good credit'. and the ability to lease mobility. Now take it on a little further and lets just say that you have managed to scrape enough together for your Electric Pod. By this time it will be autonomous, or as close as we are likely to get to it within the time period, you shouting instructions to take you to the next town where the object of your desires resides. But your pod refuses. Why? well it has done a credit check on you and the people in the next town have decided that you do not fit the profile of those they wish to have fishing in their gene pool... But it can take you to your cousins house.... And that my friends is how the human race will meet its demise - young men and women being forced to fish in their own back yard until we are wiped out by the common cold.... Right - time to get back to work so I can stock pile dinosaur juice and fire breathing V8's and highly strung flat 6's.... P.
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Dez
Club Retro Rides Member
And I won't sit down. And I won't shut up. And most of all I will not grow up.
Posts: 11,712
Club RR Member Number: 34
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Paul Y all sounds a bit ‘Brazil’ to me, so utterly ridiculous but also entirely probable. As tongue in cheek as your little story all sounds, I do see the whole eventual banning of IC thing as a tax on the poor inflicted by the rich, who don’t care cos they can afford it. They’re appeasing their guilt at slowly destroying the world and getting to show off their social status whilst doing so, so they see it as win-win. It’s a bit like the capitalist notion of supplying infrastructure by letting private investors make money off it. It’s been shown time and time again it doesn’t really benefit anyone except the shareholders, it just means the government doesn’t have to commit to anything themselves, and has someone else to scapegoat if it doesn’t work.
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As our benevolent Dictator has brought up the subject of leasing let me paint you a little story on how this could spell the end of the human race. Before the end of the 18th century it was quite common for our ancestors to be born, marry and eventually step off this mortal coil all without having stepped out of their village. This brought its own challenges when it came time to finding a 'mate' as the chances were that you are going to be related to the majority of your neighbours. The advent of the industrial revolution went some way to deepening the gene pool as the chances of having an encounter with your cousin started to decrease as people started to move into Cities from the farms etc. but it is the bicycle that is credited with making the pool into an ocean as it allowed people to travel, quickly, cheaply and independently away from their usual hunting grounds in the eternal quest to get their end away. Fast forward to today and anybody, regardless of their credit score or personal leanings can, with a driving licence and a few hundred pounds, buy personal mobility enabling them to travel where ever their heart desires, the wilds of Scotland or the beauty of the Cornish coast. Now, think forward another 15 years and all of a sudden you can no longer purchase a cheap banger and travel the high ways and bye ways in search of members of the opposite sex. You have to lease a new electric vehicle. 10 year old tech will be obsolete, batteries will be worth more than the chassis and the dream of personal mobility and freedom becomes just that UNLESS you have 'good credit'. and the ability to lease mobility. Now take it on a little further and lets just say that you have managed to scrape enough together for your Electric Pod. By this time it will be autonomous, or as close as we are likely to get to it within the time period, you shouting instructions to take you to the next town where the object of your desires resides. But your pod refuses. Why? well it has done a credit check on you and the people in the next town have decided that you do not fit the profile of those they wish to have fishing in their gene pool... But it can take you to your cousins house.... And that my friends is how the human race will meet its demise - young men and women being forced to fish in their own back yard until we are wiped out by the common cold.... Right - time to get back to work so I can stock pile dinosaur juice and fire breathing V8's and highly strung flat 6's.... P. Don’t worry we won’t have to wait that long. With any luck this Corona Virus will wipe 98% of the population out (as per the 1975 Survivors series) & all will be good again. We are due. But back to the none standardisation of EV’s, I still think Betamax is best 😉
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As our benevolent Dictator has brought up the subject of leasing let me paint you a little story on how this could spell the end of the human race. This is the best post that was ever posted on Retrorides. *WILD APPLAUSE*
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and scarily plausable....
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating '80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip '97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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Paul Y
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,948
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As our benevolent Dictator has brought up the subject of leasing let me paint you a little story on how this could spell the end of the human race. This is the best post that was ever posted on Retrorides. *WILD APPLAUSE* One does try.... P.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,697
Club RR Member Number: 39
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There will still be the bicycle !
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Just watching ch4 news, apparently they are just in the process of sinking the first deep coal mine for years in West Cumbria, who knew!
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And all the time we rape the planet for the materials for the batteries, on a local scale GB is surrounded by water, the ebb and flow is predictable. Why not turn this into hydro electric and produce hydrogen by electrolysis? ICE stays, less of the earth is dug up and filled in with expended batteries, a simplified statement I know, but a win, win to me.
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74 Mk1 Escort 1360, 1971 Vauxhall Victor SL2000 Estate.
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i have never understood why tidal generation hasn't taken off in the UK , or the insistence on blighting our beautiful landscapes with swathes of solar panels and wind farms. yes , tidal turbines would have an impact on their surroundings but we have some of the most powerful tides in the world and apart from the turn at high and low water will always be generating and be unaffected by weather conditions. millions was spend installing a "hub" in the bay off Hayle to test various wave generating rigs but that all seems to have come to nothing. we really are missing a massive trick with this one , huge generation potential with no unsightly equipment!
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'80 s1 924 turbo..hibernating '80 golf gli cabriolet...doing impression of a skip '97 pug 106 commuter...continuing cheapness making me smile!
firm believer in the k.i.s.s and f.i.s.h principles.
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way back in time we built a fleet of shoddy electric vans for DHL to use in London. It was milfloat tech and transit cabs, but it offered a load of benefits for short haul multi stop work. At the time is was 2 500kg lead acid battery sets one each side between the wheels. They were designed so you could whip the batteries off with a forklift and be back on the road in ten minutes. Arrival [some of the designers i trained] have just taken an order from UPS for a modern version. I'm not sure if they have the quick change batteries, but it makes perfect sense to drop them out thunderbird 2 style and pop a new set in, then off out with the parcels
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ToolsnTrack
Posted a lot
Homebrew Raconteur
Posts: 4,117
Club RR Member Number: 134
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way back in time we built a fleet of shoddy electric vans for DHL to use in London. It was milfloat tech and transit cabs, but it offered a load of benefits for short haul multi stop work. At the time is was 2 500kg lead acid battery sets one each side between the wheels. They were designed so you could whip the batteries off with a forklift and be back on the road in ten minutes. Arrival [some of the designers i trained] have just taken an order from UPS for a modern version. I'm not sure if they have the quick change batteries, but it makes perfect sense to drop them out thunderbird 2 style and pop a new set in, then off out with the parcels Obviously my desire for quick change batteries at the petrol stations will only ever get traction if the Thunderbirds theme is played every time you stop for a new battery. Otherwise, whats the point?
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,697
Club RR Member Number: 39
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And then how long before Hello Kitty battery packs ?
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that was Milk float tech, not Milf float, I imagine a Milf float was something encountered by Robin Nedwell or Ernie the fastest milkman in the west....
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