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All two of the most persistent brake judder issues I’ve had (on Audis) was down to suspension issues. Subtly knackered strut in one case and TCA bush in the other.
Have also had a definite case of pad material transfer on my A6 specifically with Delphi brand, mostly resolved under warranty when their rep found me the proper running in procedure that the don’t mention in any of their supplied literature.
Also on the A6 a pair of Pagid branded discs from ECP that were non uniform thickness around their diameter, nearly 1mm out! Took a while to spot as DTI showed all ok on the outside face.
Replaced under warranty but I had to take the verniers in with discs to convince them.
Vitesse gets terrible brake judder when the crappy aftermarket shoes fill the rear drums up with dust. Weird thing is it feels like the problem is at the front.
Can you feel any pulsing through the the brake pedal? I’d be suspicious of front dampers in your case if not.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,953
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Isolate each wheel brake in turn ( clamping hoses etc ) to locate where the defect exists and then check that area for defects. I wouldn't do that on that model of Jag. They have braided hoses as standard, and clamping them will cream cracker them
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Isolate each wheel brake in turn ( clamping hoses etc ) to locate where the defect exists and then check that area for defects. I wouldn't do that on that model of Jag. They have braided hoses as standard, and clamping them will cream cracker them Yes I agree, must be careful but the principle is sound. Other ways are of course possible.
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Davey
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Who rebuilt and serviced the braking system on it? As we have had issues at work with some people using copper slip or red rubber grease on slider pins. The trouble with using either of those, is that neither likes heat and becomes more resilient to just sliding nicely. The other problem is pad material transfer from braking to a halt, and then holding the vehicle on the foot brake for too long I rebuilt the brakes, sliders had copper slip before the rebuild which was thoroughly removed and graphite base specific slider stuff applied. The pad material thing is mentioned a lot across Jag forums, I have gone through all the routines and have had the discs seemingly spotless but to no avail. Now religiously use park or handbrake when at a stop, seems to have helped a little but not completely.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Davey
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Double check and rebalance your wheels a weight might have dropped off. After a run use a lazor temp gauge on all the discs and check the temps match up with each other. Make sure all the caliper pistons and sliders are free and comparable with the others, we have seen a few LR with slightly overheating brakes that have caused a judder. Check the condition of your shockers, you may have one that is slightly weak condition. Check all the suspension bushes loaded, not on wheel free. All discs pretty even for temp. One rear was binding slightly (Again copper grease on sliders... why!) but sorted this when I put new discs and pads on it last week. Shocks visually seem fine and bounce test okay but I will dig a bit further. Bushes have all been checked loaded and unloaded, on the floor, on a ramp. I cant think of any other way to test them further.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Davey
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Isolate each wheel brake in turn ( clamping hoses etc ) to locate where the defect exists and then check that area for defects. This is a good shout! I have brake line clamps and live in the middle of nowhere so pretty safe to try locally. I assume i will need to disconnect ABS at the same time to prevent any funny business.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Davey
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Did you have the issue before the calipers were rebuilt? Yes, this was the reason for the rebuild.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Davey
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Have you replaced the track control arms on the front? Or just the lower arms? Yes All lower arms, track rods inner and outer and upper arms are new or as close too as they can be.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Davey
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Isolate each wheel brake in turn ( clamping hoses etc ) to locate where the defect exists and then check that area for defects. I wouldn't do that on that model of Jag. They have braided hoses as standard, and clamping them will cream cracker them I had completely forgotten this! I think isolating wheels may still be a good way forward.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Davey
Posted a lot
Resident Tyre Nerd.
Posts: 2,203
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All two of the most persistent brake judder issues I’ve had (on Audis) was down to suspension issues. Subtly knackered strut in one case and TCA bush in the other. Have also had a definite case of pad material transfer on my A6 specifically with Delphi brand, mostly resolved under warranty when their rep found me the proper running in procedure that the don’t mention in any of their supplied literature. Also on the A6 a pair of Pagid branded discs from ECP that were non uniform thickness around their diameter, nearly 1mm out! Took a while to spot as DTI showed all ok on the outside face. Replaced under warranty but I had to take the verniers in with discs to convince them. Vitesse gets terrible brake judder when the crappy aftermarket shoes fill the rear drums up with dust. Weird thing is it feels like the problem is at the front. Can you feel any pulsing through the the brake pedal? I’d be suspicious of front dampers in your case if not. Nick No pulsing through the pedal however when the issue is at its worst there is a definite on off grabbing when coming to a stop. As shocks have been mentioned a couple of times I will definitely give them a firmer dose of looking at. Interesting on the non uniform pagid discs. The outside faces of mine are as flat as a flat think but i will brake out the Vernier's and have a measure. Want to take a minute and thank everyone for all the suggestions so far! This is by a country mile the best and most helpful forum going and without everyone in this thread i would be completely out of ideas. Thank you guys! Edit: I'm sure I used to be able to multi quote, i cannot for the life of me remember how.
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Last Edit: Oct 3, 2022 9:06:14 GMT by Davey
K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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2p2g1m
Part of things
Posts: 116
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Does the disks have disk bell screws? I had a braking vibration on a car that the disk bell screws had been sheered off. Admittedly the wheel is there as a clamp force but once I had drilled out and replaced the screws the vibration had gone.
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Davey
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Does the disks have disk bell screws? I had a braking vibration on a car that the disk bell screws had been sheered off. Admittedly the wheel is there as a clamp force but once I had drilled out and replaced the screws the vibration had gone. Good Shout but no. Jaguar in their infinite wisdom decide that serrated washers are a great solution for holding disks on. I have again done the old brake deposit removal process this morning. Much braking later and the problem seems much reduced. Lets see how long it takes to come back. Apparently front shocks can be either quite simple of an absolute pig dependant on the lower mountings condition. Will be investigating this next time I'm under it. For now I will keep occasionally stamping on the brakes and scaring the local old people.
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Last Edit: Oct 4, 2022 8:35:55 GMT by Davey
K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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I also used to work within JLR brakes (i now work in JLR powertrain).
the symptoms of what you describe definitely point towards brake judder, i would be very surprised if its anything other than that.
annoyingly I'm not sure i can be of much help because X250 was before my time, and it seems like you have done everything i would have suggested.
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Davey
Posted a lot
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I also used to work within JLR brakes (i now work in JLR powertrain). the symptoms of what you describe definitely point towards brake judder, i would be very surprised if its anything other than that. annoyingly I'm not sure i can be of much help because X250 was before my time, and it seems like you have done everything i would have suggested. It does feel very brake related as opposed to anything else but I am at the point of trying anything. Voodoo ritual? Raindance? Sacrifice a small child... I just want this wobble gone. Good news, i have an almost entirely new suspension and braking system so that's nice.....
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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have you considered fitting a smaller different brake? discs/pads/calipers?
different wheels?
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Davey
Posted a lot
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have you considered fitting a smaller different brake? discs/pads/calipers? different wheels? One of the big selling points for me was the larger front brakes. It would be possible to go to the smaller brakes but i would like to avoid this if at all possible. Wheels haven't been changed but have been on every corner of the car, rebalanced numerous times and now a new set of tyres with no change at all.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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it would be more of a test/exercise to rule out the brakes, as opposed to a permanent change.
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Davey
Posted a lot
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it would be more of a test/exercise to rule out the brakes, as opposed to a permanent change. It may be worth a try if i can find any on the cheap., I will keep an eye out.
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K11 Micra x3 - Mk3 astra - Seat Marbella - Mk6 Escort estate - B5 Passat - Alfa 156 estate - E36 compact Mk2 MR2 T-bar - E46 328i - Skoda Superb - Fiat seicento - 6n2 Polo - 6n polo 1.6 - Mk1 GS300 EU8 civic type S - MG ZT cdti - R56 MINI Cooper S - Audi A3 8p - Jaguar XF (X250) - FN2 Civic Type R - Mk2 2.0i Ford Focus
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Have your wheels ever been refurb'd? If so, check that they are seating properly on the hub... tiniest layer of paint in the spigot hole or mating surface to the hub can cause wobbles and swapping them around won't eliminate the problem if more than one wheel is similarly affected.
It sounds like you've done all the suspension, but just some thoughts from my own experience with these... Double check the ball joint on the upper suspension arm - these wear badly but don't show any movement when shaking the wheel in most directions. You'll need to have car on the ground, grab the top of the tyre and yank it firmly towards you. Front lower bushes also fail - try rocking the car forwards and backwards and check whether the wheel goes with it or gets left behind! On the rear suspension, placing a large lever bar under the tyre (car raised securely) and lifting upwards will reveal all sorts of bushes worn that you'll never find by hand alone. Can't remember how the front shocks are mounted at the lower end on these, but the same test with a lever bar under the tyre is the only reliable way to spot a worn lower shock bush on some Jags.
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