stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Oct 13, 2009 22:42:13 GMT
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I've long been eyeing up a Omega 2.5TD engine for the Carlton, and the "how much boost can a 525TD engine take" thread has confirmed its the way to go for good MPG and better overtaking potential.
So how hard are engine swaps from petrol to diesel? Can you use the stock petrol fuel tank but with a different pump? What about wiring - are diesels more complicated wiring wise than a petrol equivalent?
If it helps i've seen Omega MV6 engined Carltons so can't be impossible.
Matt
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Oct 13, 2009 23:34:44 GMT
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The BMW TDS has a lift pump in the tank and then the main pump on the engine. Not sure if you would be able to adapt the tank to fit the lift pump, but after that it's just plain ordinary plumbing as far as I know, as all the high pressure stuff is after the main pump, and already plumbed in. The M51 is a great engine, but I'd say you'd definitely need a complete donor car to swap everything over as there's a fair amount of wiring such as the drive-by-wire throttle and ECUs. Nice big fat wiring loom with these too. ;D It'd make a great conversion I reckon! RWDRules really knows his stuff about these, he helped me out no end when I had mine.
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I don't know, but but I'd wager the wiring colours are the same from bmw>opel so most of the wiring is gonna be relatively easy. the trhottle pot on the pedal is the hardest bit of the wiring I'd geuss but having not swapped one I don't know. I do have a swap coming up but not until Rians taunus is done. are the omega's intercooled? i know the TDS bmw is and is 150bhp against 115 for the non intercooled TD. the pump is just a little low pressure version of a petrol in-tank pump, so just sling it in the carlton/senny fuel pump cradle.
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As for fuel consumption, i think it wont be as good as you think mate, ive heard these engines can get thirsty as soon as tuning occurs, but I'm still looking at getting one early next year for mucho RWD diseasel fun
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Mark
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,097
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I did a good bit of research into these engines a few years ago and found that they weren't that much more economical than the 525i especially if you tuned them. Don't want to be a Negative Noreen but I'm not sure I'd bother for all of the expense, hassle and time!
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True about fuel economy - my 525TD wasn't all that good. It was alright, but just not as good as I thought it would be. I think the Omega engine is the same as the BMW TD - no intercooler, 115bhp. Although it isn't all that hard to make it a TDS as far as I could figure out - swap the ECU, add intercooler, and I think that's all the major differences are - the main fuel pumps ar the same. Slightly different part numbers on the turbos but they are essentially the same unit - perhaps the compressor wheel is slightly different or something. I had all the bits to do it to mine, but the gearbox failed before I could. That's the other difference - the auto box on the TD is a GM4L30, which I found out is fairly fragile . The TDS has a 5-speed ZF box which can take the power. Course, as it's an IDI lump you can use veg oil without bother, which might ease the hit of fuel consumption.
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beejay
Part of things
Posts: 203
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Oct 14, 2009 10:09:26 GMT
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When you come to fill up, I've been told the nozzle for diesel is bigger than the petrol, hence won't fit in the fuel cap. I've never tried it so not sure if its true! Just something to keep in mind
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Oct 14, 2009 19:28:02 GMT
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hope this lot helps!!! omega does have an i.c. its mounted behind the drivers side vent in the front bumper , early ones don't have the ic fan which it does need!! makes a hell of a difference to inlet tempos, omegas td was detuned by vaux as they wanted to fit the ar25 auto box which is only rated at 250nm 128bhp max and they have a habit of melting them around 100k, easy swap for the ar35 from the 3 litre 24v just use the td bellhousing and torque converter, you can them start playing with the engine output!!the ecu is easily chipped back to bmw specs ;D and i can supply the relevant chip with just the 10 digit code from the ecu and the year of manufacture of the vehicle!!(£70) early ones are plug in and later ones require a chipholder soldered in to board, however manual to start is defo the way to go, turbo is same unit but mounted under the manifold on the omega and up top on bmw, when chipped economy goes up as well as the power!! and there are approx 30 owners of chipped td omegas who will verify this!! mine went up from 35 to around 46/8 driven sensibly to low 20s when first chipped as the loud pedal gets very addictive!! fbw throttle is bolted unit to the peadal easily added to another car, downside with omegas is they all use chipped keys which is easily fitted but you must have the key that matches the ecu or it wont run!! so a donor car is favourite way to go, some cars have a hot start problem(range rovers and bmws also suffer this) whereby it takes a lot of cranking to fire the engine when its hot!! ebay will sell you a resistor jobbie that cures this but really all you need is to whip the top of the pump off and repkace the fuel temp sensor as this is what causes the fault!! pump in tank is as said just a modified oetrol one really that can and do go faulty good news is they are held in by just a twist top and rubber seal so easy to change, when you remove the engine from the donr you will find it a pain to try and get the loom off the engine as its trapped by the injector pump pipes!! the space there isnt big enough for the wiring block to come out so very judicious bending of pipes or removal is required, as long as the engine has very frequent oil changes (4.5k max with semisynth oilo they will happily do 400k no problem if its neglected the chain guides wear and the pump timing goes to pot, however it is a reasonable job to change them(noneed for head removal) and the engine is one of the easiest in the world to set the timing on as it uses coloured links in the chain to ensure its all aligned properly, engine also has oil swuirters to carry away excess piston heat and these can be blocked if oil changes are not regular which results in blown hg! think that about covers it? rwdrules
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some cars have a hot start problem(range rovers and bmws also suffer this) whereby it takes a lot of cranking to fire the engine when its hot!! ebay will sell you a resistor jobbie that cures this but really all you need is to whip the top of the pump off and repkace the fuel temp sensor as this is what causes the fault!! always wondered what it wasa that caused it! was told some guff about needing glow plugs when hot or pump timing moves and allsorts! can you not just bypass the chipped key? bmws only got it from '95 on and that can be snipped somehow or you can get a D-ews chip that removes the coding from its memory. you don't posses a wiring diagram for an omega TD do you?
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Oct 15, 2009 11:22:48 GMT
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When you come to fill up, I've been told the nozzle for diesel is bigger than the petrol, hence won't fit in the fuel cap. I've never tried it so not sure if its true! Just something to keep in mind My W124 Diesel was like that anyway. I never did work out why, it was the original tank with Diesel written on the breather. Those crazy Germans
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Oct 27, 2009 23:37:50 GMT
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some cars have a hot start problem(range rovers and bmws also suffer this) whereby it takes a lot of cranking to fire the engine when its hot!! ebay will sell you a resistor jobbie that cures this but really all you need is to whip the top of the pump off and repkace the fuel temp sensor as this is what causes the fault!! always wondered what it wasa that caused it! was told some guff about needing glow plugs when hot or pump timing moves and allsorts! can you not just bypass the chipped key? bmws only got it from '95 on and that can be snipped somehow or you can get a D-ews chip that removes the coding from its memory. you don't posses a wiring diagram for an omega TD do you? sorry guys been computer less for a few weeks!!! pretty sure you can get rid of chipped key but easier way would be to tape the chip in the key to the ignitionring sensor and then hide it out of site? as to wiring diagram believe it or not although the haynes boook of lies don't cover the td model, if you study the wiring diagrams in there the td wiring is there!!! ;D
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As for fuel consumption, I think it wont be as good as you think mate, ive heard these engines can get thirsty as soon as tuning occurs, but I'm still looking at getting one early next year for mucho RWD diseasel fun Don't know about fuel economy in these particular engines, but we got a good surprise at work recently. The model of van that we deal most with runs a big petrol engine (3.7l?) and gets 16-18L/100km economy ( ). We've just bought a diesel version of it (2.5 or 2.8l?), and after a combination of suburban and twisty B road driving we've seen 8-9L/100km economy! twice the economy seems pretty remarkable in identical spec vehicles. As for changes, as has been said, fuel pumps tend to be different, as do filler necks, exhausts, and the obvious electrical changes, certainly far from impossible, just try to keep the diesel's engine and diff so you're ratios are right for the lower revving deisel
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Remade In Australia thereimaginarium.com.au
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Oct 28, 2009 12:54:16 GMT
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Wouldn't it be easier to convert your existing petrol burner to LPG. That way you keep the performance lively..... you keep the car original (no need for driveline and transmission mods) and you get toward twice the mpg depending on the compression ratio of your existing petrol engine..
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'71 Arrocuda.... '71 Sunbeam Rapier Turbo (The Grim Rapier).... '63 Hymek D7076..... Audi GT5S
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Oct 29, 2009 10:46:13 GMT
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Its not quick enough with the stock 2 litre in so an engine change would be required anyway. I could put a GSI straight 6 in, but that needs a huge amount of work as you need the GSi front subframe.
Matt
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Oct 29, 2009 13:07:01 GMT
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Its not quick enough with the stock 2 litre in so an engine change would be required anyway. I could put a GSI straight 6 in, but that needs a huge amount of work as you need the GSi front subframe. Matt I'd love to see a Carlton with the Omega 2.5 TD engine in it. Phyically i don't see the problem in it actually fitting, it's getting it running with all of the elctrics that would scare me off!! One day, i hope to put a 2.3TD Carlton/Frontera engine in place of the 2.2i engine in my mk2 Carlton. But with an automatic gearbox!! The Monza 4-speed auto bolts straight up to the 2.3TD engine, and makes for a very relaxed & lazy ride. I know someone who has done just this, but in an Omega that previously had a 2.5 V6 petrol engine in it!! He's even managed to convert it to run on a serpentine auxilliary belt, and has retained the Omega's aircon!! I think there's a fair bit that can be done to the 2.0 OHC engine to make it go better, but didn't the earlier 2.0 OHC's have more power anyway? I', sure that there are 2 slightly different versions of the engine that were both used, (SE & NE?) but i can never remember which one is which. I think one has about 130bhp, the other 115.
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Oct 29, 2009 17:16:32 GMT
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sehmakes 130 bhp,others are115 bhp,go for it with the omega td matt,they are quickish and they do sound good!
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Oct 29, 2009 17:19:41 GMT
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Mines the 115bhp model. Its not too bad unloaded but as I carry the family + associated stuff around, or a car full of car parts it gets a bit dangerous over taking.
I've bought the front half of a Omega anyway. I'll get the suspension, wheels and brakes done first then have a go at popping it in.
Matt
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Oct 29, 2009 18:11:48 GMT
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Well my GSi is basically a re-shelled 2.0 Diplomat, so it definately is possible to change the engines and put the straight-six in. And i had a 2.0i CD which had all the running gear from a 12v GSi before. I didn't do either conversion myself, all i have done is convert mine from 24v to 12v and from auto to manual, but not at the same time as the engine swap!
Like has been mentioned, you need to swap the entire front subframe off the 6-cylinder car. You have to move the radiator mounts, and alter the exhaust mounts. You will also need to re-route the fuel pipes from the offside to the nearside of the car unless you put the 3.0 12v in and then the fuel pipes are on the same side as the 2.0 8v. I've got round this particular problem by routing mine over the top of the engine, the strut brace came in handy to keep them away from the hot bits!!
The Omega front subrame is different to a Carlton, so not sure exactly how you'd get on there. To fit the 2.5TD in a Carlton i still think you might need the front end from a 6-cylinder Carlton (or Sentor as they are the same). I think the biggest headache is definately going to be the wiring, as the 2.5TD engine has an immobiliser built in somewhere.
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,842
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Oct 29, 2009 19:33:37 GMT
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I was thinking that the 2.5TD would go in with the standard subframe but with new engine mounts. Not 100% sure though.
I don't really want a GSi engine in it, i'd have to convert to LPG at the same time as the mpg wouldn't be great.
Matt
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Oct 29, 2009 19:47:04 GMT
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I was thinking that the 2.5TD would go in with the standard subframe but with new engine mounts. Not 100% sure though. I don't really want a GSi engine in it, i'd have to convert to LPG at the same time as the mpg wouldn't be great. Matt If that is the case then mechanically the job should be fairly easy. You'll need to make sure you have the gearbox from the TD as well, as the bolt pattern is different. If you do go ahead with this then take lots of photo's as i may well copy you in a year or so's time!!! ;D Only i will probably drop the engine in a Senator and have an auto box on the back. I think it would be a bit too ambitious to put the 2.5TD engine in my mk2!!
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