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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 21, 2010 17:08:28 GMT
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It was lucky that I decided to renew the fuel line - after a began taking it all out, the small length of steel pipe just twisted and snapped. ^ The remains of the old pipe. Now, when I was removing the old pipe, I noticed that it passed through the chassis rails, but in between those points there were no clamps to hold it to the chassis as I've seen on every other car I've had! I don't know if that set-up is "normal" or not, but I figured I'd fit some anyway. It can't hurt. Problem was, I couldn't find anywhere that sold what I was after - a clamp which holds both the fuel line and the brake line. P-Clips I could find, but they would only hold the one pipe. Plus I'd have to wait for the postman. So I figured I'd make some. ^ I started shaping some strips of steel around a bolt the right size. ^ After some tapping, bending, persuading and filing I came up with these. ^ Which work like so. I used small pieces of hose, slit down the length of it, to go around the pipes and act as a rubber support. ^ Then after the new fuel line was installed I fitted the clips, secured to the chassis via a self-tapper. The zip-tie in the photo was what passed as a securing method for the pipes before. I ran out of daylight so I haven't re-fuelled it yet but to be honest I can't wait to take it for a spin! I've noticed a bit of a leak on the diff, and one under the gearbox, oh and a little one under the engine too... ;D I'll top up the diff and make sure the breather is clear on the top. GL-4 spec as GL-5 will kill the yellow metals apparently. I can live with the small leaks - it's all part of owning an old motor. Oh yeah, I also found that one of the tyres was made in a country which no longer exists since the iron curtain came down. Past its sell-by date I think...
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Last Edit: Jan 21, 2010 17:11:43 GMT by BenzBoy
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Jan 21, 2010 18:34:42 GMT
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Nice work Dean! So glad this is now getting the attention it deserves. She does drop a little oil, but not much - certainly compared to my wife's incontinent Mini! Built in rust-proofing FTW!
I'll try and get the stuff to you at some point - haven't forgotten, just been razzing about up north.
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1986 Citroen 2CV Dolly Other things. Check out my Blog for the latest! www.hubnut.org
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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 21, 2010 18:39:45 GMT
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Nice work Dean! So glad this is now getting the attention it deserves. She does drop a little oil, but not much - certainly compared to my wife's incontinent Mini! Built in rust-proofing FTW! I'll try and get the stuff to you at some point - haven't forgotten, just been razzing about up north. Thanks Ian! Yeah I'm not too worried about the various fluids. The gearbox has had a top-up and I'll do the diff just to see how much is in there. Just keep me posted about the bits - I'm not in a huge hurry or anything.
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prey
Part of things
Posts: 856
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Jan 21, 2010 19:28:25 GMT
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Not sure why but theres something about this that you can't not like - would love a good look round it in person, will have to make the next meet!
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,513
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Jan 21, 2010 19:59:34 GMT
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Lovely looking clips Dean! You can buy something similar, I'm sure. You can cut the cable ties off now You've not got any oil leaks. Its the built in, factory approved, anti rust treatment. ;D
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jan 21, 2010 21:09:23 GMT
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More nice work Dean. It'll be mint by the time you've finished!
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Siert
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,104
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Jan 21, 2010 21:14:45 GMT
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That's great work. Do you mind if I copy your fuel line clips idea? I'll need exactly that for my 309 and I also noticed that you can't really buy anything very suitable. Using a piece of rubber fuel line around the copper ones to fit them is a great idea!
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jan 21, 2010 21:25:54 GMT
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Thanks John, yes I'm really pleased that the tank is good. I didn't fancy trawling the scrappy / eBay for a suitable replacement! I've PM'd you regarding the suspension, but feel free to post it in here instead if you like as I just thought, it may be useful to others. One thing I don't think I can do is lower the front end - it's quite low already but a bigger problem would be that I wouldn't be able to open the flip-front. It already hits the floor if I'm on a slight incline. Hi Dean, As you suggested, I decided to put up the PM below in case others want to chip in. Noticed since I sent it, Seth's Herald has a really nice lowering block on the rear spring, so obviously they are available. retrorides.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=readersrides&thread=35482&page=1Hi Dean,
First thing to say is that I've never had a Triumph, so none of this is first hand experience. My knowledge comes from studying suspension design as a student and what I've read and learnt over the years.
As you probably know, Herald, Vitesse, Spitfire, GT6 and the Bonds share very similar chassis.
All have a swing axle, except the Vitesse Mk2 and GT6 Mk2 which have a modified and much better system, similar to double wishbone (they call it rotoflex, named after the variable length driveshafts required).
Mk3 GT6 reverted to a swing axle, but a better design than the earlier cars; I think it was the same on the late Spitfires (Mk4 onwards?).
The places you need to research are Triumph forums and modifiers. Having said that, you'll know that some people on forums, whilst keen and helpful, don't necessarily know what they're talking about! So they'll swear blind that their own product/solution is best, but don't take that as gospel.
Look at some of the proper top-end motorsport sites; they spend loads of cash, so a good race/rally car will probably have a well tested set-up.
General:
Being honest, the swing axle is an old design, with pretty poor geometry. It's fairly good for traction and ride, but the on-limit handling is the problem. Specifically, it's snag is large camber changes - and especially if the back of the car goes light, it can tuck under (positive camber) giving a very sudden loss of grip.
A swap from a later Triumph would be good. Not sure how easy this would be (parts availability, and maybe a need to weld extra mountings on the chassis? Not sure). You should check what's do-able as a bolt on mod.
General swing-axle improvements:
Lowering. This will give you negative camber as a starting point and make it less likely that the car will rise high enough to go into a jacking situation. Probably easy to get a retempered Truimph leaf spring.
Reduce wheel movement. Stiffer springing and damping help because less (and better controlled) suspension movement = less camber change. But bear in mind roll-stiffness, below. Good quality, updated dampers should be your first mod; ideally get adjustable ones.
Reduce camber change. Widening the track (e.g. spacers or different offset wheels) will help because the longer the swing axle, the less camber change there is from a given wheel movement. The Bond looks to have room under the arches for a decent increase in rear track, so this might be an easy one as well.
Reduce leverage. Might be possible to lower the swing axle pivot point (reduces leverage, so jacking less likely). This is what Mercedes did (and maybe the later Spitfire/GT6? But if there's no bolt-in option, this one will be tricky)
Increase front roll stiffness. Putting on a front anti-roll bar (or a double/thicker one) will give the car a bit of natural understeer, which helps stability. Easy
If you fit stiffer rear spring, you'll need to compensate with an increase in the front roll stiffness as well to avoid an oversteer tendency (so either stiffer springs at the front, and/or bigger front ARB)
Reduce rear roll stiffness. Z-bar, compensator spring or similar. A sprung device connecting the two swinging arms, making the suspension stiffer in bump without increasing the roll stiffness. Mainly used as OE by the German manufacturers, seach under Porcshe 356, VW or mid/late 60s Mercedes. Probably easy to fabricate something.
Straps. Physically limit positive camber by fitting straps to limit downward wheel travel. You'll still risk oversteer (wheels coming off the ground) but at least when it lands you'll have grip without the wheels being tucked under. It's primitive, but this is what they did on the 1930s 600bhp V16 Auto union racers!
Avoid wide rims and low profile tyres. Your inevitable camber change means that you need to allow the wheel rim to be at a different angle to the tyre contact patch, so you need some tyre side-wall flexibility and not too wide a rim. Wide, low profle tyres + swing-axle is a lethal combination.
Probably, a blend of some of the mods above will give you a vastly better handling car, even though it will never have the predictability of modern IRS or a well-located live axle.
Do some research, then I'd be happy to chat over some specific plans if you want.
Meanwhile, driving it safely:
You don't have to crawl everywhere. When I was a kid, my late Grandad had a 2-litre Vitesse with the swing-axle, unmodified, and he drove it quickly and safely on twisty back roads.
Classic good driving techniques apply here, but are much more essential. (Apologies if you know all this already... not wanting to lecture!).
1. Be smooth. Do everything, with all the controls, smoothly
2. Slow-in, fast-out. Get your entry speed right in a straight line, then power through corners (back-end down, negative camber). Drive like this and it will grip hard and feel good - you'll wonder what all the fuss is about!
3. Unless you are provoking a reaction, do not lift off, or worse brake, in a fast corner. So be careful on unknown roads or where you can't see the corner exit
4. Beware of corners with big bumps or undulations (could induce positive camber at the back).
If, despite all the planning, you need to lift or brake in a corner:
1. Try not to. E.g. if you find yourself in a tightening radius corner it's better, if possible, to stay on the gas and just deal with some understeer by applying more lock
2. If you must lift or brake, do it gently & smoothly and as little as possible.
3. Feel through your backside what's happening at the outer rear wheel - you'll feel the jacking start to lift the back end a split second before the loss of grip.
4. Plan to apply a rapid, large opposite lock steering correction - and be ready to remove it very quickly to avoid over correcting and sliding the other way. (But if you have enough room to reduce the braking to keep the back end just below the "lifting" point, you might be able to avoid a slide).
5. Come off the brakes and reapply some power as soon as you can (but still smoothly)
Once you're really used to how it behaves, you might start to enjoy and exploit the highly throttle-adjustable behaviour that a swing-axle gives, like this...
Good luck with it. It's a great car and I look forward to hearing how you get on!
John
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Last Edit: Jan 21, 2010 21:42:46 GMT by johnrh
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Seth
South East
MorrisOxford TriumphMirald HillmanMinx BorgwardIsabellaCombi
Posts: 15,513
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Jan 21, 2010 22:02:55 GMT
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That's a huge amount of really good advice! /\ First mod on the Herald was adjustable shocks. Made a huge improvement. Camber compensators were and may still be available but they reduce chassis clearance to the ground at the back. There are two lengths of Triumph driveshaft, later Spitfires having longer ones. Can be used to alter geometry and widen track on a Herald. Stiffer rear (van/estate spec) springs are sometimes available though obviously ride height might suffer. Lowering block helps get some neg camber. available in three thicknessess up to an inch (what we have) I think. You need matching longer HT studs/bolts to hold the spring to the diff! Can't go any thicker than that without cutting the boot hump out for spring clearance! I believe I have once suffered from the rear end jacking up on a very tight, off camber bend which I entered too fast while braking. I think I was once saved on a Welsh B road by having a boot full of brass watch parts that kept the rear end planted! Under normal circumstances I find the handling fun and predictable with a nice bit of DRifT Yo! available.
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Follow your dreams or you might as well be a vegetable.
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jan 21, 2010 22:08:38 GMT
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Just a bit of 200mph swing-axle fun
John ;D
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jan 21, 2010 22:31:46 GMT
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That's a huge amount of really good advice! /\ First mod on the Herald was adjustable shocks. Made a huge improvement. Camber compensators were and may still be available but they reduce chassis clearance to the ground at the back. There are two lengths of Triumph driveshaft, later Spitfires having longer ones. Can be used to alter geometry and widen track on a Herald. Stiffer rear (van/estate spec) springs are sometimes available though obviously ride height might suffer. Lowering block helps get some neg camber. available in three thicknessess up to an inch (what we have) I think. You need matching longer HT studs/bolts to hold the spring to the diff! Can't go any thicker than that without cutting the boot hump out for spring clearance! I believe I have once suffered from the rear end jacking up on a very tight, off camber bend which I entered too fast while braking. I think I was once saved on a Welsh B road by having a boot full of brass watch parts that kept the rear end planted! Under normal circumstances I find the handling fun and predictable with a nice bit of DRifT Yo! available. So based on Seth's knowkedge of what's available, I would suggest this as a really good, enjoyable and safe spec: - Adjustable shocks, rear ones set fairly hard but don't go mad!
- Van/estate rear spring with lowering block
- Widen rear track, either with spacers (easiest way) or later Spitfire parts (best way)
- Front anti-roll bar from a later Spitfire or similar (or double/thicker bar, if it has one already)
- Decent quality (but not very big) tyres. Period design tyres will be best; modern ones are not designed to cope with large camber changes
- Then experiment with adjusting front vs rear tyre pressures until it feels right. I'd try 28psi front and 32psi rear as a start point
Then drive it hard, but always with your brain in gear! Cheers John
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Last Edit: Jan 21, 2010 22:42:23 GMT by johnrh
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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 21, 2010 23:10:50 GMT
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Thanks a lot guys! Prey - hopefully you'll be able to have a look round the Bond at the next Limes meet! Will be good to see you again mate. Seth and Johnrh - Very useful advice, thankyou! The front end seems to sit lower than the rear, so a block on the back will make it sit level. I'll try to get the best balance of cost and performance with the suspension mods. I need at least two tyres, but I can get a good variety of top brands pretty cheaply at my local place. Regarding tyre pressures, there doesn't seem to be anything specified by Triumph (that I can find anyway). I read one guy's blog who said 25psi front and 26 rear, but that seems rather low. Siert - You're welcome to copy them! The smaller hose for the brake line is BMW vacuum hose. ;D
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Last Edit: Jan 22, 2010 0:12:39 GMT by BenzBoy
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Thanks a lot guys! Prey - I need at least two tyres, but I can get a good variety of top brands pretty cheaply at my local place. But can your local place get classic tyres in? Moderns might not like the swing-axle camber changes. I don't know what size the Bond takes, but try longstone classic tyres. 145x13 Vred is £34 www.longstonetyres.co.ukCheers John
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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 23, 2010 11:06:29 GMT
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The size I have on at the minute are 135 80 13. The tyre options at my local place are:
AVON AV CR322
MARSHAL KR11
TOYO 330
FIRESTONE F590
Plus some other cheapie brands but for the sake of literally a couple of quid I figured a top brand would be worth it.
I read up about the various designs and they seem to be developed for small modern cars, and with fuel economy in mind. Are the Vredesteins a classic design more suited to the Bond? They are slightly wider than what I have on at the moment.
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jan 23, 2010 18:36:43 GMT
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I think all Longstone tyres are clasisc type, but the best thing would be to phone them and explain what you're looking for.
If you're going to do the suspension mods (or some of them) soon, I would go for the 145s. But if you're going to run on standard suspesnion for a while, best stick with the 135 - assuming that is the correct original equipment (have you checked that?)
John
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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Jan 23, 2010 20:40:13 GMT
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I think all Longstone tyres are clasisc type, but the best thing would be to phone them and explain what you're looking for. If you're going to do the suspension mods (or some of them) soon, I would go for the 145s. But if you're going to run on standard suspesnion for a while, best stick with the 135 - assuming that is the correct original equipment (have you checked that?) John I've looked into things a little more. Triumph Vitesse (nearest car I could find as there is very little info out there specifically for the Equipe) standard tyre is a 5.20x13 crossply, which translates to a 145 R13, so I'm unsure as to how this car ended up with 135's.*Edit* According to this chart a 5.20x13 is a 135 80R13 or 145 70R13.
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Last Edit: Jan 23, 2010 20:43:38 GMT by BenzBoy
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johnrh
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jan 23, 2010 21:22:09 GMT
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I think all Longstone tyres are clasisc type, but the best thing would be to phone them and explain what you're looking for. If you're going to do the suspension mods (or some of them) soon, I would go for the 145s. But if you're going to run on standard suspesnion for a while, best stick with the 135 - assuming that is the correct original equipment (have you checked that?) John I've looked into things a little more. Triumph Vitesse (nearest car I could find as there is very little info out there specifically for the Equipe) standard tyre is a 5.20x13 crossply, which translates to a 145 R13, so I'm unsure as to how this car ended up with 135's.*Edit* According to this chart a 5.20x13 is a 135 80R13 or 145 70R13. I know nothing about cross-plies, but assuming the "5.20" means "inches wide" thats 132mm. You need to check profile though. The original 5,20x13 MIGHT be a 100% profile tyre, in which case rolling diameter is 595mm. A 135/80x13 rd = 546mm so your gearing/speedo will be out quite a bit. 145/80x13 rd = 562mm 155/80x13 rd = 578mm 135/100x13 (if available) rd = 600mm As I said, talk to Longstone tyres. I'm sure they will have all the original equipment specs. If they don't have Bond data, I would think either a 13/60 Herald or a 1600 Vitesse would be closest. I'm sure they'll advise you on the best options. John
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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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Well, I've had a bit of a trial with the tyres. I ordered a pair of Avon 135/80R13's from valuetyres. When I got to the tyre fitters yesterday, I found that 1) The tyres hadn't arrived yet, and 2) the Bond is wearing 155/80R13's! How on earth I got it into my head that they were 135's I'll never know - I even recall going out and checking at least twice. So, the tyres that had yet to arrive were cancelled and I'm being refunded. This afternoon I'm getting a pair of 155's from my local tyre place, whose prices are surprisingly good. I can't be picky on the brand as I need a pair asap - I really don't like the look of the cracked, old tyres that are on it.
Yesterday, the car started firing on 5 cylinders. After investigating the plugs, no.2 was sooty. I checked for a spark at the lead, and nothing. So I ordered some new HT leads, and stuck a spare lead from a box of random ones I have in the garage. Still missing. So I swapped over two of the original leads - the "faulty" lead gave a nice, fat spark, but no.2 was still misfiring. The dizzy cap and rotor arm are new, along with the points and condenser. I had removed, cleaned and re-gapped the plugs. Baffling! I then noticed that the LT wire on the points had a connector crimped to it, and the plastic insulation was causing the wire to stick up too high, right in line with the No2 terminal on the dizzy cap. This was blocking the spark from the rotor arm and causing the misfire. Once I'd trimmed down the insulation and re-routed the wire, she fired up on all six again. Normal service has been resumed! That's the oddest cause of a misfire I've ever come across - I don't understand why it didn't do it all along. Very strange!
In other news, Guz kindly gave me a pair of bullet mirrors, so I can now see behind me without sticking my head out the window Ace Ventura style. I've also got the boot to lock, which is nice.
Sorry for the slightly dry update, it's becoming more of a "daily running" thread at the moment, but I'll be doing more exciting things with it soon, promise!
I have a leak from the diff pinion, so that's going to be high up on the to do list.
On the plus side, it gets lots of attention from people on the street and at the filling station, and I still feel like I'm in an episode of The Champions when I'm driving it! ;D
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stefan
Posted a lot
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,598
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I always ran my old Heralds on 155s and my MK3 spitfire on 165s and never had any problems i used camac budget tyres you should be fine
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POWER IS EVERYTHING WITHOUT CONTROL
1985 Honda jazz 1997 Saab 93 convertible 2010 transit 280
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1967 Bond Equipe GT4SBenzBoy
@benzboy
Club Retro Rides Member 7
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I don't know if it's psychological, but after getting the tyres the car felt much better. On the old tyres it seemed to squirm about and didn't feel very sure-footed at all. Probably the sidewalls were too flexible due to the age of them (20 years old at least!) The tyres are by Event, which I was a bit concerned about, but doing some research they are a Dutch company and at least are a manufacturer who are contactable and have some sort of profile. My main concern about Chinese tyres is that they hardly ever have any kind of "public face" in the form of a website or something, and there is never any technical information on them. I've also discovered that Event Tyres BV is part-owned by Continental, so I dare say they are using old Continental moulds. Fine by me. Once I've sorted a set of slotmags I'll be needing another set anyway, so these will do just fine for now.
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Last Edit: Feb 5, 2010 16:28:40 GMT by BenzBoy
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