Holden Commodore family tree

[jader1973]

Following a thread hijack (a welcome one though) there were questions about the origins of the Holden Commodore and how it relates to the Opel/Vauxhall cars.

From what I know, and can cross check on Wikipedia, this is the family tree:

VB (1978), VC (1980), and VH (1981):




all based off Opel Commodore C


VK (1984), and VL (1986)



based off the Senator A


VN (1988), VP (1991), VR (1993), VS (1995)





based off Senator B


VT (1997), VX (2000), VY (2002) and VZ (2004)





all based off Omega B


Everything from VN onwards is wider than equivalent Opel.

Current model, VE, is unique to Aus (my long gone 6 litre V8 )


this uses the same underpinnings as the VE Commodore and was in fact developed by Holden Engineering, and is built in Canada.....


So the Opel Commodore C is related to the Chevrolet Camaro ;D

[alexg]

Apr 13, 2010 12:28:16 GMT jader1973 said:

Current model, VE, is unique to Aus (my long gone 6 litre V8 )

Brave colour choice mate

[waveman1500]

Apr 13, 2010 14:18:04 GMT alexg said:

Apr 13, 2010 12:28:16 GMT jader1973 said:

Current model, VE, is unique to Aus (my long gone 6 litre V8 )

Brave colour choice mate

It was the Holden factory "hero colour" for a while in all the ads and sales literature, so there would be quite a few thundering SS V8 Commodores getting around in metallic purple mica. I rather like it actually. I can't remember what it was called though, Hyper Mica or something like that?

[Prud]

Excellent stuff. And yes, the "Billion Dollar Baby" or "Billion Dollar Botch" (depending on your perspective) VE Commodore was a complete clean sheet by GMHolden. Pretty much nothing can be transferred to earlier models without modification. Over the years the Commodore has definitely grown bigger. VNs are wider than VB-VL, VTs are wider than VN-VS, and VEs are wider again than VT-VZ.

Are the Opel Commodore C and Senator A closely related? Because in Oz VB-VL are all considered one group. Everything from a VL can be bolted into a VB-VH with little to no modification.

It's how I converted my VH to RB30 power. I bolted in a VL front subframe with the engine still in it. I used VL lower suspension arms, VL steering rack with VH struts and VL Turbo brakes. A custom rear gearbox mount was needed - the VL floor is slightly reshaped to make room for a cat convertor. I used the VL diff, and even though it's 12mm wider it's a direct fit. The 4 link is VH and I used an adjustable Watts (because of how low it is). The exhaust is mostly VL too. About the only non-VL transplanted part was the fuel tank (VN) because it was a good cheap one at the wreckers.

Yeah, I had a VL to strip for parts ;D

Main changes over the years for Commodores:
* VB-VK had Holden straight 6s (dating from the FX) and Holden 253/308 V8s. Gearboxes were a carry over from the early days of Holden as were the diffs.
* VL had Nissan RB30E/RB30ET straight 6s and the Holden 308 V8. Nissan gearboxes for the RB30E/RB30ET and Borg Warner diffs for all models. Also VLT (VL Turbo) and VLV8s scored 4 wheel disc brakes.
* VN-VY had 3.8L Buick V6s for engines, TurboHydramatic autos or Borg Warner manuals and Borg Warner diffs. All models had 4 wheel disc brakes.
* VN (if I remember correctly) saw the 308 become a 304 and score fuel injection.
* VT saw the change from the Holden 304 V8 to Chev GenIII V8s and the introduction of probably the worlds worst independent rear suspension setup. Think Datsun 1600 x 1000 in terms of camber change with load.
* VX saw a fix to the camber change issue of the independent rear suspension.
* VX-VE saw a change for the V6s. The 3.8L was revised/overhauled to become the new 3.6L V6.

What does all this mean? VX-VE V6s are an easy transplant into VN onwards Commodores. And since Retro-Tech is huge in Oz, you can buy conversion kits to transplant VN-VE V6s into every Holden (and most other manufacturers models) ever sold here. Wrecked V6 Commodores change hands for less than $2k, so it's an easy way to really up the power while keeping good economy. Ditto for the new Chev V8s.

BTW, the infamous Holden Torana is based on a Vauxhall Viva
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Torana

[Prud]

Apr 13, 2010 14:18:04 GMT alexg said:

Apr 13, 2010 12:28:16 GMT jader1973 said:

Current model, VE, is unique to Aus (my long gone 6 litre V8 )

Brave colour choice mate

Looks better in the flesh. It's a really popular colour. Especially with the Highway Patrol

[jader1973]

Apr 13, 2010 14:53:04 GMT waveman1500 said:

Apr 13, 2010 14:18:04 GMT alexg said:

Brave colour choice mate

It was the Holden factory "hero colour" for a while in all the ads and sales literature, so there would be quite a few thundering SS V8 Commodores getting around in metallic purple mica. I rather like it actually. I can't remember what it was called though, Hyper Mica or something like that?

It was called Morpheous - no longer available.

And while it might have been brave I'm fortunate enough that I only keep them for 7 months before handing them back.

So after that one I had an Astra (well I needed to redress my carbon footprint) and since then these (in order):




The rules are:
1) never get the same colour twice in a row
2) get something bright so the car gets noticed which might, just might make someone buy one.

Sorry for the modern content.

[waveman1500]

Mmm, wagon goodness! I love wagons. Do you find the road noise on the new wagon to be much louder inside the car than the sedans? My dad has had every model of Commodore since the VT on lease, and we considered ordering a wagon but we were unsure about it. Apparently they're supposed to be a bit boomier inside, and since dad does so much highway driving he thought it might be better to stick to the sedans.

Oh, yes, retro content, right:

[79cord]

Other details
edit: mostly repeating pretend pud...

1st generation

VB (1978), VC (1980), and VH (1981):




VB/VH/VK Pretty much as per Opel/Vauxhall body bar Holden 4.2 & 5.0 V8 (introduced in '68 HK Holden), Holden straight 6 ('48 FX origin a bit of an exageration, '63 EH "red motor" more likely/direct ancestor) & mercifully shortlived 4cyl. "starfire"(cut down push-rod I6) and locally sourced g/box/diffs, though it should be noted Holden virtually broke their first Opel test vehicles in half & proposed a number of spotweld revisions & minor reinforcements. 4dr sedan & wagons only.


VK (1984), adopted Opel Commodore C rear pillar windows, NOT its available independent rear suspension or other changes.



and VL (1986)

Received obvious new front & rear restyle and significantly more refined 3l straight 6 Nissan sourced motor as getting the old Holden six to meet newly introduced emissions rules & power with unleaded fuel was iffy & expensive to say the least... though they managed to hold onto Holdens old 4.2l V8 a little longer.

2nd generation
inspired & loosely based upon the Senator B externally but enlarged in most dimensions and actually based mostly upon the old floorpan, Chev 3.8 V6 & injected Holden 5.0 V8. live rear axle. 4dr sedan, wagon, utility [& stretched, restyled long wheelbase "Statesman" & "Caprice" derrivatives ].


Senator B


VN (1988),


VP (1991), started to adopt Opel inspired independent rear suspension.


VR (1993), Front & rear restyle & refinement.


VS (1995),

3rd generation
Loosley based off Omega B? But bigger.



VT(1997), VX (2000), VY (2002) and VZ (2004)

VT (1997) Bigger new body & floorpan Chev 3.8 V6 & Holden 5.0 V8. Again 4dr sedan, wagon, utility [& stretched, restyled long wheelbase derivatives ].


VX (2000), Chev 5.7 V8 replaces Holden V8. {Monaro 2 dr coupe variant returns & exported to the USA as Pontiac GTO}.


VY (2002) Restyled nose/tail.


VZ (2004) New Chev 3.6 V6 replaces 3.8.


4th generation



Current model, VE (2008) Completely new with Chevrolet designed 3.6l V6 & 6.0l V8, Again 4dr sedan, wagon, utility [& stretched, restyled long wheelbase derivatives -no more Monaro].
Briefly exported to the USA as a Pontiac with minor restyle.

& for more retro

"Walkinshaw" HoldenSpecialVehicles VL Commodore SS Group A

[waveman1500]

Not bad, 79cord, although I think you'll find that the 3.8V6 was more of a Buick motor rather than a Chev. Also, the Chev GenIII 5.7L V8 actually replaced the old Holden 5L during the VT's model life, they didn't wait for the VX facelift. There are plenty of 5.7L VT SS Commodores getting around to prove it.

[akku]

these kind of posts make me want to move to Australia

[waveman1500]

Apr 14, 2010 13:32:44 GMT akku said:

these kind of posts make me want to move to Australia

Yeah, I would dare to say that we're the last country left making BIG rear-wheel-drive 6cyl and V8 sedans for less than a year's salary on the average wage. The SV6 Commodore, for example, is a sporty sedan which is a similar size to a BMW 530i and has about the same amount of power for roughly a third of the price of the BMW in Australia. Of course the interior plastics are not as nice, but come on! When big fast cars are that cheap who cares about fit and finish! Even our LPG-fed taxis have at least 170kW and rear-wheel drive. The kW/$ value only gets better with the V8 Commodores and 4L turbo 6cyl Falcon!

[Prud]

Apr 14, 2010 11:38:33 GMT 79cord said:

& for more retro

"Walkinshaw" HoldenSpecialVehicles VL Commodore SS Group A

Ahh, the Tupperware Kit! Developed out of the VL Commodore by Tom Walkinshaw to go racing at Bathurst. The giant, and I do mean giant, rear wing/deck extension was supposed to reduce drag and make it quicker down Conrod. No idea if it really worked, the VL Walky wasn't that successful at the Mountain.

If I remember correctly, the VN-VS live axle rear end bolts into the VB-VL bodyshells after you lop a couple of inches off the width. This is done to get rear wheel disc brakes and a 4 spider diff with more splines than the 2 spider VL diff or the piano wire VB-VK diffs. One thing about GMHolden - they definitely believe in evolution not revolution.

The 3.8L V6 (VN onwards) was definitely a Buick V6. Rumour has it that it has a lot in common with the champion Rover Alloy V8. But I do know that in Buick form the V6 was front wheel drive, GMHolden needed to convert it to rear wheel drive for the Commodore.

But they neglected to address the issue of oiling. The FWD-RWD change-over meant serious angle changes to the isnstallation. Oil didn't flow well around VN Series 1 blocks, so many of them suffered oil starvation. Hence it's incredibly rare to find a VN Series 1 that hasn't had an engine swap.

Aside from that, as long as they're well-maintained, every one of these models are more than capable of 1,000,000 km's on the original driveline. No, I'm not joking. 1,000,000 km's - the bodyshells will be nothing but rust but the mechanicals will keep going. And that goes for Falcons. 95+% of the taxis in Oz will attest to that.

You can also buy conversion kits in Oz to put GenIII+ V8s from Commodores into pretty much everything with 4 wheels. Including full factory engine management systems. Given how cheap and powerful GenIII+ V8s are, they're popping up everywhere. If you're looking to re-power a retro with a V8, you could choose far far worse than the GenIII+...

Nitpicking I know (given that GMH is owned by Chev), but as for the 3.6L V6, I never thought Chev had much to do with it. My understanding is that GMHolden reworked it in-house.

[waveman1500]

Apr 14, 2010 15:58:17 GMT Prud said:

Nitpicking I know (given that GMH is owned by Chev), but as for the 3.6L V6, I never thought Chev had much to do with it. My understanding is that GMHolden reworked it in-house.

No way in the world mate! The 3.6L "Alloytec" was a mildly localized version of a globally-developed GM world engine called the HF V6, which was first unveiled in a Cadillac, then later shared with everything from Alfa to Daewoo. Basically it was already designed to be built in all sorts of different specs from about 2.8L upwards, naturally we demanded the largest displacement and nearly the lowest-tech version of it available, lol. They initially held back a few of the nicer features like the variable exhaust cam timing, essentially so that they could be released as updates with later models. We're now pretty much up to speed with the cutting edge of GM engines, using the much-publicised SIDI direct injection system. I got most of this knowledge from reading Street Machine, but there's a Wiki article as well! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Feature_engine

On a related note, the only true Australian-developed engine still in production is the Ford straight six, and it's head is already on the chopping block once it reaches the end of the current Falcon model cycle. Alas, I fear that we are seeing the last days of unique engines, as it's becoming increasingly the trend for each major car corporation to have only a handful of world engines to share across all their brands and models. The HF V6 is a perfect example, as it's used in such lowly cars as Daewoo all the way up to Alfa Romeo and Cadillac. Surely people buying an Alfa don't want a mildly warmed-up Daewoo engine?!

[Prud]

Apr 14, 2010 16:16:10 GMT waveman1500 said:

Naturally we demanded the largest displacement and nearly the lowest-tech version of it available, lol.

Bwahahahaha! It's funny 'cause it's true! ;D

Seriously though, thanks for the reply. I've never looked that hard at the 3.6L V6. It was never going to be cheap enough at the wreckers for me to consider it for the VH Commodore, and I'm not about to buy a new-new car anytime soon.

Apr 14, 2010 16:16:10 GMT waveman1500 said:

On a related note, the only true Australian-developed engine still in production is the Ford straight six, and it's head is already on the chopping block once it reaches the end of the current Falcon model cycle. Alas, I fear that we are seeing the last days of unique engines, as it's becoming increasingly the trend for each major car corporation to have only a handful of world engines to share across all their brands and models. The HF V6 is a perfect example, as it's used in such lowly cars as Daewoo all the way up to Alfa Romeo and Cadillac. Surely people buying an Alfa don't want a mildly warmed-up Daewoo engine?!

I'm not that concerned about unique/Oz-developed motors. Common engines make it easier for building horsepower. And cheaper to buy parts too. You can bet that a do-hicky for an Alfa will cost a swag more than the same thing for a Daewoo.

The only thing that I don't like is the current rumours that Ford are going to try a FWD Falcon. They really shot themselves in the foot by killing off the V8 in the XF run. Not having a V8 option ruined the reputation of the company. Building a Falcon sized FWD would probably see them leaving Oz as a manufacturer. Look at the Mitsubishi 380. It was a great car, but FWD was not something Aussies wanted in a family car.

[usedabused]

[waveman1500]

Apr 14, 2010 16:25:28 GMT Prud said:

Apr 14, 2010 16:16:10 GMT waveman1500 said:

Naturally we demanded the largest displacement and nearly the lowest-tech version of it available, lol.

Bwahahahaha! It's funny 'cause it's true! ;D

Seriously though, thanks for the reply. I've never looked that hard at the 3.6L V6. It was never going to be cheap enough at the wreckers for me to consider it for the VH Commodore, and I'm not about to buy a new-new car anytime soon.

Yeah, they've proven to be a bit of a mongrel to transplant, the new Alloytecs. They share almost nothing with the previous 3.8L Ecotec, so all the conversion parts already available for them don't work, and the sump is in the wrong place for most old cars. Not to mention that the ECU is very stubborn, lol. It goes without saying though that it has been done, within only a few months of the engine coming out in fact. They are worth the hassle, as they're light as a feather and the SV6 version kicks out 190kW, which is more than any stock 5L Holden V8 ever produced, including the HSV versions. Even the 5.7L HSV strokers only used to be good for about 210kW, which is the same as the new 3.6L SIDI V6 in the SV6! Modern technology is amazing, to think that the hottest V8 Holden you could buy 15 years ago has less power than a normal V6 model!

[waveman1500]

Apr 14, 2010 16:25:28 GMT Prud said:

I'm not that concerned about unique/Oz-developed motors... The only thing that I don't like is the current rumours that Ford are going to try a FWD Falcon.

Unfortunately the inline 6 and the RWD platform will die together. Whether it's sales suicide for the Australian market or not, the Ford head office have said that there will be no more new global RWD platforms. What this means is that there will be no help from Dearborn to develop the next Falcon platform, and since Ford Australia doesn't have $1 billion to spend on bravely developing a modern RWD architecture on their own like Holden did, they will have no viable options left other than doing a local restyle of the Mondeo. What Ford Australia are doing now is keeping the last Falcon going for as long as they can, which will probably mean another facelift of the current model and about 5 more years of production until the Falcon is too dated to sell. Then only the Commodore will be left.

Some pics in tribute, and to compensate for the wordy essay above:


The Last of the V8 Interceptors, in honour of the Falcon


The Last of the Big Bangers, because this is a Commodore thread


The Last Samurai??! How did that get in here?

[Prud]

Big Bangers or burnouts... Tough choice ;D

[Camp Davy]

when we lived in australia we had a curse word vl wagen with v8 powertrain my dad ended up crashing it and it ripped the car into two pieces then we had an kingswood great car better built than the vl and after that we had various falcons
i go to australia every year to visit my stepmom will be happy to bring back v8 dvds v8 magazines etc

larry perkins my personal hero still is

[sammm]

Some good history so far but if anyone is interested in more information you can't go past Unique Cars and Parts.

They have detailed histories of each model, full specification lists, colour charts and even period television commercials.

www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_info_holden_commodore.htm

The 360 spins and reverse to 1st burnouts in the VB ad are particularly comical.

www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/movie_popup/holden_commodore_vb.htm