1989 VW T25 - VR6 coming in ....

[mrj]

a friend of me has this :




a 1989 ex-army T25 transporter, equipped with a 1,7l diesel engine with 57 BHP. combined with the shortest gear ratio available an absolute adventure to drive. Conversation stops at 80 km/h, not to mention the general slowlyness ... that and the ridiculos road tax and the ban of older diesel vehicles in bigger cities was the start of the idea to convert this bus ....


As he doesn't use as a daily , there is no need for a Diesel anymore, so we could actually chose more BHPs, too... so a Golf Mk.III scrappage scheme vicitim gave the engine :



It is an AGG engine, that's 2 litres and 115 BHP, exactly 100% more power ;D It is almost a plug and play conversion , as the block is almost the same as the Diesel block. So we put the generator, starter, engine mounts and exhaust from the Diesel, use a 5speed TD box, a petrol tank, an electric fuel pump and the loom from the donor car. That's should be it ....

today we stripped the engine down , to make a to-buy list :









the engine has 180k kms, should still be fine . We have to change a couple of things, a new oil pump and an oil pan from a Diesel have to be fitted, a special made down pipe, new cam belt and some gaskets ....

Plan is, to have everything ready, so that the conversion will take place in 2 days... one for all the mechanical bits , and the other one for the electric stuff. Also there is an H&R suspension kit around, as I told him it must go lower with the new engine ....

well, it is not my car, but it is an interesting conversion , as it is not that expensive, is almost plug and play and I might do the same to my transporter, if the waterboxer is packing up again .... i'll keep you updated then ....

[cdp]

I still can't understand why VW fit the Golf/Passat engine instead of going to all the trouble of designing the wasserboxer with all it's inherent problems.

It can only be political as the in-line engine had to be cheaper and the South African T25s even got the 5 cylinder. I guess they didn't want one of those "Audi" engines in the last proper VW.

The water cooled flat four is a wonderful engine but it never really should have happened.

[mrj]

Nov 21, 2010 17:43:37 GMT cdp said:

I still can't understand why VW fit the Golf/Passat engine instead of going to all the trouble of designing the wasserboxer with all it's inherent problems.

It can only be political as the in-line engine had to be cheaper and the South African T25s even got the 5 cylinder. I guess they didn't want one of those "Audi" engines in the last proper VW.

The water cooled flat four is a wonderful engine but it never really should have happened.

back in the days when they were developing the T25 they had a very strong lobby inside VW for the boxer engine , if you look at the watercooled boxers, it is a madness, that wouldn't happen today . It was a very expensive to build engine, though i really love it (when it works) ; i am really looking forward to that conversion, as it is very popular over here at the moment.

[cdp]

I can understand them using the air cooled engine initially but when the emissions regulations dictated water cooling in the 80s they should have realised it was time to let go. Especially considering the diesel was already in line and had been since 1979. Those Audi engines are really light too.

My T25 ended up with Spanish heads as I couldn't find a second hand genuine head without a crack or a hole. There was also a six cylinder version. I really wouldn't like to be trying to find new heads for that.

VW also did a front wheel drive car called the "Gol" with a boxer in Brazil, I don't think it was water cooled

www.lunaticfringe.org/vwfox/specs/VW-Gol-LS-1981.html

Very confusing. It's a pity they couldn't develop the theme as it might have been a replacement to the Alfasud.

[jamesv]

Nov 21, 2010 19:58:22 GMT cdp said:

There was also a six cylinder version. I really wouldn't like to be trying to find new heads for that.

Okrasa/Oettinger built them, WBX6, originally developed for VW, but they pulled the plug on them, so Oettinger made them themselves, 3200cc and 3700cc, there's a tidy one in this months Camper and Bus.

Here's a WBX6:

[cdp]

Wiring aside that looks far neater than the VW engine installation even if it looks more super car than delivery van.

I bet it sounds good.

[grizz]

Conversions can be a great thing.

Doubling power will put you where my bus went, except with modern technology on all four corners.

[andye]

Has to be done mate, just finished 2.3i 5 cylinder conversion on my Crewcab.





Cheers Andy e

[mrj]

^that 5pot conversion looks very neat... ! We do not get Euro2 on these engines anymore, otherwise it would have been our #1 choice of engine ....


in the meantime :

couriers came and went and left a lot of parts :



we put them on one table, so that they don't get mixed up with the chaos in the workshop and disappear ;D


also we found out, that some parts from the engine were obviously designed in norway :





;D


so only some small parts are missing and one big part; the gear box; my mate is still considering which way to go, either 4 or 5 speed, but certrainly with an LSD ....

[mrj]

another saturday, some more progress; the workshop is filling up with parcels from all over the country, we now have most parts for the conversion, only some small bits are missing. As I don't want to put in a dirty engine, I told Ruben to use the drill with a brush and clean some parts ... he probably went too far ;D



the block was also attacked with the brush and degreased...



I replaced the gaskets for the camshaft, idler and crankshaft ...



also the oil pump had to be modified, we need the pump from the TD engine; but with the driveshaft from the petrol engine. We fitted a new oil pump ...



then some paint ...







then some more parts found their way.... distributor, water pump etc..



exhaust manifold



the distributor was also attacked with the brush., looks like a brand new one ...



new crankshaft sensor, old one was damaged, we want a 100% working car, so a new one came in ...





it is a lot of fun to mess around with new parts especially when someone else is paying for them ;D

next week the cam belt will be fitted, exhaust and inlet manifold, and some smaller parts. Hopefully we'll be having an oil pan then. Ruben has to source a different gearbox before christmas; also the power steering rack needs some TLC ...

[grizz]

Whis is the number plate off the Passat ??

[mrj]

Dec 12, 2010 8:45:54 GMT grizz said:

Whis is the number plate off the Passat ??

this one :




that is the original, non-euro plate from that car.... i tend to put them on, as if the car is standing outside, people think it is registered. It is not illegal to park a car on your own ground without plates, but it brings attention to all those "i'll buy this car at any price people" which i don't like. It is not registed though, i took it off the road 7 years ago...

[mrj]

especially for Grizz :



;D


today we were also working ...




valve cover is getting the same colour as the Bus ...





new fuel tank was getting some rust protection, too ....





engine mounts were degreased ....




we will be converting the transporter also to power steering during the engine swap .We had some secondhand upper wishbones, which were also getting some paint ...




and new bushes of course .... these are pressed in with the hammer and secured with a small spot weld ...

[DutyFreeSaviour]

that's a LOT of work going into this old Army bus....

As I only know some of the rules with the TüV - is this on a red plate or H? Or is this conversion approved by them? thought on a 'normal' plate you'd be facing a grilling.......

Hope everything is well down your way - take care

John

[mrj]

Dec 16, 2010 13:48:40 GMT DutyFreeSaviour said:

that's a LOT of work going into this old Army bus....

As I only know some of the rules with the TüV - is this on a red plate or H? Or is this conversion approved by them? thought on a 'normal' plate you'd be facing a grilling.......

Hope everything is well down your way - take care

John

well, it has been done before, there is a certificate available at a transporter specialist (he has paid for that, a couple of 1000 €s, so it won't be for free), so TÜV won't be a problem and therefore it will stay on the standard plates. The whole conversion might be about 3-4k Euros (including the brand new gearbox with a limited slip diff) and the TÜV fees, it will be well worth it, especially as you double the horsepower and reduce the road tax from 700 down to 200 €, you get the green sticker so you can use it in bigger cities and of course it will be much more fun to use... this conversion is very popular at the moment and can be done cheaper, but i insisted in a lot of new parts . A lot of people just put a cheap engine in and have trouble then. I only want to do that once but proper in the first time ....

[Siert]

Nice side project mrj. I'm looking forward to seeing your T25 go up the hill at Prescott

Nov 21, 2010 19:58:22 GMT cdp said:

I can understand them using the air cooled engine initially but when the emissions regulations dictated water cooling in the 80s they should have realised it was time to let go.

I might need to post this in the daft question amnesty thread but what does air cooling versus water cooling have to do with reducing emissions?

[mrj]

Dec 16, 2010 16:59:55 GMT Siert said:

Nice side project mrj. I'm looking forward to seeing your T25 go up the hill at Prescott

Nov 21, 2010 19:58:22 GMT cdp said:

I can understand them using the air cooled engine initially but when the emissions regulations dictated water cooling in the 80s they should have realised it was time to let go.

I might need to post this in the daft question amnesty thread but what does air cooling versus water cooling have to do with reducing emissions?

i am not an engine expert by far, but i know that for example the CO at idle needed to be less at some times in the 80s, an air cooled engine must run rich compared to a watercooled; and to be honest, the air cooled engines were outdated when the T25 came out; the 1,6l was sloooooow, and the 2.0 was using a lot of fuel, and also the heating was not really usable (hot or cold, nothing in between) .... VW was still struggling in the 70s , though the watercooled cars were selling really good, they lost a lot of money with being with an oldfashioned model range. They simply didn't have enough money to pay the development .... also, there was a strong lobby inside the development team for aircooled and boxer engines ....

[mrj]

We received the last missing parts, so the cam belt could be fitted :






also the engine mounts were fitted :





you can see the strange position, the engine will be fitted in the transporter .





new flange including new sensors ....




the oilfilter flange was just attacked with a wire brush, though new bolts were used wherever possible... don't be irritated by the dipstick, that will change , too, as we need the dipstick from the transporterengine ...



later that day we'll play with the adaption of the v-belt; as this engine had the new style of belt installed, we want to change over to the old fashioned system ....

[mrj]

this afternoon we loooked at the arrangement of generator/power steering pump. The original Golf engine has one belt for all, we wanted to have 2 belts and those oldfashioned belts, not a V belt ... so i had this lieing around :




this is the Scirocco engine, which will be going into the Jetta Mk. 1 one day; we looked at this and it might work:



this bracket holds the generator at the old engine; only the panel behind the cam belt had to be modified; top from the old one,. lower panel from the new ...



we could have left it like that, as you don't see it, but i wanted to weld it ...



i ran out of welding wire not show and shine finish, but you don't see it afterwards....



Primer...



black paint and it fits ....





then we trial fitted the pulleys, and it is ok ....




looks pretty weird, but thats the way it could have been from factory ..




the genrator is also from the Scirocco engine, so we have two proper adjusters; the diesel engine has a real strange arrangement with two piece pulleys and shims in between ....



we had to "adjust" the panel behind the cam belt, as the generator was touching it ...

so that is one thing solved, where we were expecting problems, next week its engine swap time ;D

[mrj]

big update, though it is christmas time it would be rude not to go into the workshop, would it ? ;D



in with the old bus ...



old engine says goodbye ....





we took it out including the gearbox, is much easier .... for the time being the box will stay in, as the 5 speed box is currently being refurbished and given an LSD ...




i use latex gloves for working on oily bits, and you can use them to put over the driveshafts ...



crime scene, the victim has been covered in a bag...



oil sump is actually silver under 20 years of used oil....



and already fitted to new engine ...



exhaust bracket on one side of the sump...



old garden bench was used for bracket on the left side ;D



works well...



oldbus-style of cleaning stuff ...



paint...



done... things like that take a lot of time, it is a straight forward swap, but i don't want to put that together with old oily bits... the conversion has to be inspected by the TÜV afterwards, and it should look professional...




custom-made manifold in place; i am not an engineer, but i think that the flange on the new part is too thin, we'll see what happens ...



oxygen sensor in place; there will be a catalitic converter added, too, we are actually investigating which to choose. We want Euro 2 emissions , so we need to find a decent converter. For the time being it will have to run without a converter ...



you wouldn't design an engine application like that nowadays.... looks a bit strange ...



in the meantime Ruben was dealing with the petrol tank. It needs to be changed, as the outlet pipe has a bigger diameter than the diesel ones, also the old one was very rusty on top.... so we were using black rust preventing paint and some wax on top....



we took the engine of the stand, i replaced the rear crankshaft gasket ...



you shouldn't forget that little bearing, as the T25 gearboxes need it, the Golf the engine came from doesn't...



clutch fitted, engine loom added ...



inlet manifold also added ... that doesn't look like a lot of work, but it kept us busy for the day ... a lot of time goes into the small things, like cleaning stuff etc. , but i think it will be worth it .... some smaller things are left to do, we need to "build" some water hoses , wire up the ECU and the fuel pump, b ut we are on the way. Tomorrow the engine will be in the bay ....