Ideas of self employment, Any Advice?

[RobinJI]

Hey guys, I've got a crazy idea at the moment that might just end up happening, and I'm after some advice from you fine people to get a better idea of how feasible it is. ;D

Basically, I'm coming to the end of my degree, and I'll be looking for a unit to work on my Mini, as well as looking to buy a whole bunch of tools for the same reason. I'll also obviously be needing a job (to pay for this, and those other inconveniences such as food, and a roof over my head.)

Now this has got me thinking about the idea of combining the lot into a single thing I've always wanted to do. The idea being to set up self employed doing motorsport based fabrication work. I've always wanted to be self employed, I don't really get on with big business, it goes against my personality in quite a big way, and I know I'd enjoy working for my self. Also I love making things.

This sounds like a crazy idea, but I've approached a company who make racing-car-stuff (I don't want to be more specific at this point because this is all very in the air still.) and if some new products of theirs go to plan, then they sound keen for me to do some work for them. This should, all things going well provide me with two weeks a month work at a reasonable rate. They've seen my work and they know they'd be more than happy with it (I know them fairly well now). They'd hopefully also be pointing a noticeable amount of work my way as they regularly get asked to do stuff they can't fit in, or just aren't kitted out anymore (they've slowly moved from custom to production work). I think this would give me enough of a bump-start to get past the highest risk stage of setting up a business, and it would allow me enough spare time to do work under my own name and build up a reputation without the risk of zero work coming in. I believe I've got the skills to do the work, I learn quickly, and I think I've got the right attitude with customers and marketing to get/keep a good reputation.

I figure now's the best time to do this if I'm going to. There's good benefits for post-graduates, and I'm at a point in life where I've got very little commitments or responsibilities. (Single, living at home, cheep cars, zero debt besides student loans ect...)

I'd be wanting to mostly make parts in low volume production runs, group buys of fancy wishbones/subframes, that sort of thing, for any car there's demand for, as well as custom work to customers cars; modifications and race preparation, and the odd bit of repair work. As anyone who knows me would probably guess, I'd likely try and specialise in suspension modifications, (both for racing or looks,) but I'm happy to do most jobs on a car, including engine swaps and the like. I'm happy designing parts as well as making them, so could offer a start to finish service for any custom bits, rather than just fabrication.

I'd also do the odd bit of push-bike work as a low/zero profit side line, as they're a bit of a passion of mine.


So less rambling, and down to the questions:

1 - Insurance: Firstly car insurance, I'm not really in the know with this side of things. Obviously it'd be nice to be able to offer to pick up and drop off customers cars and parts, so I'd need to be insured on my Passat for business use, and I guess driving customers cars for test drives and the like would be a big advantage. I'm guessing I could get traders insurance for this, or is that just for people buying and selling cars? I'd eventually want to sort out something specifically for the business, probably a retro small pick-up or car based van, which would make things easier, but wont happen strait away.

Then there's the more business specific insurance, I know I'd need public liability for the premises, and I'd want contents cover for the tools. But I'm wondering if it's normal to also have cover against lawsuits and that sort of thing? (Obvious I'd never let work I wasn't absolutely happy with the safety of out of my sight, but there's some instances where customers can be a pain, and sadly some people love to blame others for things that are really their fault.)

2 - Qualifications: Is there anything I'd specifically NEED to do this sort of work? As far as I can tell there's not, but it's not something I've been looking into that long. Everything on cars seem to come down to the specific quality of the part, rather than worrying about who made it, so it seem's there's nothing specific needed here? I'd still be wanting to get a few more certificates to my name, but it'd be a big bonus if I can be working and setting up the business in the mean time. I've got a National diploma in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering, and should soon have a DSc Honors degree in Motorsport Technology, so I'm not completely without by any means, but I know there's often more industry specific stuff needed.



Even if this doesn't go ahead now, it's something I'll be looking seriously to do in the next few years, so any advice is very very welcome. I know there's a few guys on here doing similar(ish) things, and I'd love to here from them (Dez and Huxley jump to mind, but I know there's a fair few of you).


(Sorry this isn't specifically retro car related, but I'd consider it quite relevant, and I'd hope it's not seen as too out of place on here. I'm not quite sure which board's best to put this in, mods, feel free to move it if I'm wrong.)

PS, sorry for the length, that got away from me a bit, thanks for bothering to read my rantings if you've made it to the end! ;D

[penrhynrallycentre]

Take a piece of ADVISE from someone who has done this for the last 20+years and is still at it don't DO IT find a job believe you me you will sleep soundly every night.

What worries me a bit about your posting on here is how can I be polite in this without offending you........You have asked what qualifications you need to do this job,this worries me a LOT...Why...well if you had to ask this on a forum and you are going into manufactuering parts for cars then simply Sir you havent a clue what you are doing.Sorry to be so blunt but they do say truth hurts,You haev mentioned you want to buy tools to do your Mini and be able to do the work you need to do on it.

I will ask you a couple of questions....How much experience have you working on cars

Have you any idea how much toold and equipement you need
Can you Tig and Mig weld....are u a coded welder......if manufactering you will need coding.
Do you know how much a unit will cost and how big a unit do you need
The list goes on and on and setting up a proper unit especially if you don't have any equipement will cost you in excess of £20000....yes you did read it correctly.
Ins will cost you dependant on your age....I am over 50 and cosst me well over £1500 for all risks road use up to the value of £25000 tools and equipement up to £15000 which lets face it probably isnt enough and public liability of up to £5million.BUT does not cover me when I manufacture any part.
The reason it does not cover me is simple,to be covered you need parts crack testing etc and there is NO way they will ins parts for motorsport as you the supplier can not gtee they are being used for the intended purpose.

Top makrs to you for thinkijng about it I sinceerely hope you DO NOT proceed with it and go out and find a job far safer believe you me


Dave

[RobinJI]

Mar 16, 2012 0:01:17 GMT penrhynrallycentre said:

..Advice..

Thanks for the advice Dave.


What worries me a bit about your posting on here is how can I be polite in this without offending you........You have asked what qualifications you need to do this job,this worries me a LOT...Why...well if you had to ask this on a forum and you are going into manufactuering parts for cars then simply Sir you havent a clue what you are doing.

Sorry, but I'm not sure how not knowing what qualification I'd need to do a job mean's I'm incapable of doing the job? I've seen you personally slating the idea of qualifications over ability, so you're clearly aware they're not necessarily the same thing.


I will ask you a couple of questions....How much experience have you working on cars

Questions sound good.

I've got a fair bit of experience for my age, but I am young, and naturally inexperienced. I know this is a downside, which is why I wouldn't really consider it unless I thought I could do the job. As I said, the company I've been speaking to know my work, and know they'd be more than happy with the quality of it. I'm a pedant of the highest order when it comes to the quality of work I. I'd imagine my issue would likely be getting stuff done quickly enough to be profitable rather than the quality of the work. We've all got to start somewhere, and I think that's the right way around to start out, the speed should come with experience.


Have you any idea how much toold and equipement you need

Yes, to put it simply.


Can you Tig and Mig weld....are u a coded welder......if manufactering you will need coding.

I can MIG weld well, and am learning to TIG weld, picking it up fast from the little time I've spent doing it so far. I'd never consider doing any welding on customers work unless I was 100% happy with the quality of it though. I'm not coded at the moment, but this is why I'm asking. I'm not aware of whether it's a case of NEEDING to be, or if it's just preferable.


Do you know how much a unit will cost and how big a unit do you need

Yes.


The list goes on and on and setting up a proper unit especially if you don't have any equipement will cost you in excess of £20000....yes you did read it correctly.

Yep, I'm aware of the costs of that side of things.


Ins will cost you dependant on your age....I am over 50 and cosst me well over £1500 for all risks road use up to the value of £25000 tools and equipement up to £15000 which lets face it probably isnt enough and public liability of up to £5million.BUT does not cover me when I manufacture any part.
The reason it does not cover me is simple,to be covered you need parts crack testing etc and there is NO way they will ins parts for motorsport as you the supplier can not gtee they are being used for the intended purpose.

Thanks for that, it's nice to get an idea of what policies cover, as I'm not at a late enough step to really be getting specific quotes yet.


Top makrs to you for thinkijng about it I sinceerely hope you DO NOT proceed with it and go out and find a job far safer believe you me

Thanks. I'm going to keep looking into it all the same, but I'm not about to jump into anything, it's why I'm starting looking at it now. I've got various things lined up to get some money coming in while I'm considering what to do in the long term.

[Clamity]

Hey RobinJI, kudos to you for your enthusiasm: times are pretty tough to be starting out at the moment.

I can't answer either question, but I've been my own boss for just coming up to 8 months now and it's great. However, I have a couple of things working in my favour: 11+ years' post graduate experience in my field and a long long list of contacts gained though previous jobs. Every hour I've booked so far has been for customers of former employers that I knew personally more-or-less. I can't realistically see that changing any time in the next year or two either.

So regret to say my advice would be to do the hard graft and stick at it for a few years first. (If you're doing it right, it needn't be that hard really.) I don't get on with big corporations much either I've found having done stints at a couple of car manufacturers, so look out for opportunities at small (<100 headcount) companies. The pay is always better, so long as they aren't doomed, and if you find you clash with the people, just move on.

Any enterprise can present opportunities for being creative and making stuff. You just got to keep an eye out, and let it be generally known that you are a 'doer'.

Self employment is not total a bed of roses: It's gone 1am now and I find I'm still sat in front of my computer.

Good luck with whatever you decide dude.

[waveman1500]

Rather than re-inventing the wheel and starting your own business with zero experience, have you considered working for a similar company? Find any small motorsport fabrication outfit and offer to work for them. If you can get a job in the field to start out with, then I think that at least 5 years of relevant experience would be a good idea before starting out on your own. That way, you can make small mistakes along the way and learn from them, without losing your business, reputation and livelihood. If you already have contacts with a potential client, perhaps you could negotiate to bring this business with you? I'm not sure of the trade practices legislation in the UK, so you might have to check whether this is legal or not. If it is legal, then approaching a potential employer with not only the necessary skills, but also offering a potentially lucrative contract with a new client, might go a long way towards finding yourself a job.

[composimmonite]

My advice is don't financially overstretch yourself. Initially spend as if you are into serious DIY and slowly build up tools etc paid for with cash rather than business loan. That means in the future you know what you earn is yours (after tax and other expenses like rent, insurance etc) rather than having to pay a big lump to bank as repayment on loan to set up buiness. All too often people borrow to pay for equipment at the start of a new business and if the work doesen't come in at the rate it was predicted they forget the loan still needs repaying evey month. Also if the worse happens and business fails a loan still needs repaying so you have to sell all the equipment you have built up and hope it raises enough.
I spent 20+ years as a Revenue Officer for HMIT (pre HMRC dept) and I've seen thousands of small businesses suceed, and also fail, but the best approach for starting always seems to be KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. IE don't run before you can walk so build up slowly and that includes waiting until you can afford a £1500 TIG welder etc before you buy one instead of borrowing straight away without knowing you have the work to justify the cost outlay.

Good luck whatever direction you decide but I'd say "go for it"

Paul H

[Deleted]

It's a big step working for yourself, my brother is a vehicle trimmer and he is only now getting a reputation for himself and getting work through recomendations and he's being doing it for over 7 years, it's tough and to begin with you are realy making very little out of each job as you don't want to scare people off with high prices.
Idealy it would be better to work for another company and cut your teeth there, then you can setup your own business taking a few customers with you . Also if you are any good you'll never have time to work on your own stuff!
Be careful with people who promise you work, when it come to the crunch they can often change their mind
Setting up a company is the easy bit, keeping ontop of the paperwork well thats the hard bit, anything you can book through the company will lower your tax bill!
Good luck though with which ever path you go, you could in the end prove some people wrong

[ianboyd]

You won't be able to realistically run a business without investing £80,000 in it,

you may get some equipment for £20k, but that will be just the basic, even to manufacture small runs, you will need better(faster) than basic,

bear in mind that most landlords hate the motor trade, thinking it dirty dodgy and lowering the tone of the units,

you will find it difficult to find a lease that is easy in/ easy out and a reasonable rent without a large deposit and long lease period,

you will find that customers are slower to pay than you expect and suppliers will only deal if you pay upfront, there could be 3 or more months between paying out and getting back, a time when rent, insurance and your living expenses will need to be paid,

so cash flow will be a problem and having a limited number of customers makes it much more risky, as any decision they make can mean you have fixed costs but no income

insurance will be really high, much more than what we pay £2,500 a year

you seem to have the practical skills and will to learn others, but you need business skills.

As others have said, I think you need to work for someone else in the same field, get experience, contacts,


but if you can get past all of that, then good luck

[IDY]

If you havn't already found out the Prince's Trust give out advice, help and grants. They helped me set up my first business 19 years ago (it doesn't seem that long ago )

Most of the businesses I have run have been small catering companies so I don't have any specific advice, but in general I really enjoy being self-employed and haven't liked it when I have had to work for other businesses/people. BUT it is not easier, you will have less money and much more stress being self-employed

[grumpybadger]

Getting money out of people is getting harder and harder year on year, people who would pay right away are now taking months.
The work is there but it's spread pretty thin so cashflow is king at present.
I've been self employed for 12 years now and whilst it's easy to live day to day savings are pretty much nil and a pension even less.

There's a lot to be said about a 9 to 5r with a pension and sick pay.
Good luck with what ever you do.

[Deleted]

Couple of small, hopefully useful points.

1: Business Interruption/sickness insurance. DO IT. If it's your income, you WILL regret not having it.
2: Keep on top of tax laws and get an accountant from the beginning. Things like Annual Investment Allowance will ensure your tool costs aren't hitting your sustainability - but they change (AIA has gone from £50K, to £100K, then £25K, IIRC). I found my new car last year was 100% allowable (as I have a personal car, and use it for personal things, my business car is purely for business) as it was a 99g/km one - a happy accident as all I did was choose a cheap economical car.

If you're young and starting out that accountant is vital - getting a mortgage, if you want to buy a house in the future, is a nightmare.

Good luck!

[composimmonite]

Another thought is go self employed part time. Not such a silly idea. Get a mundane job, even stacking shelves (I've done that as a second job when my son was young and we were skint so aren't knocking it), to meet the day to day expences of living. Maybe a part time job as an employee for 3 days a week so you can then indulge in your passion / self employement for 2/3 days ? Slowly build up the business to the point where you can then go full time.

Paul H

[Battles]

Good on you for not moaning about how hard it is to get started without having done any research.

The advice in this thread is generally top notch but any prices quoted will be for someone elses unique set of circumstances, get your own figures and double check them.

After you've priced your tools and kit, insurance and acountancy fees, you need to know what it will cost you each day to go in, turn on the lights, heat the place and do a day of paid work. Then you need to work out how you can make double that each day.

Have at least two bank accounts, one for you and one for the tax man. Put 30% of any invoices that are settled into the tax man's account and don't touch it without the Accountant saying it's okay.

Given the costs of acquiring tooks and kit, AND a workshop AND a customer base, maybe you should consider working for yourself through another firm?
You get the advantages (tax mainly) of working for yourself but are spared the set up costs while you build experience.

You mention having approached a company who make racing-car-stuff as being an important part of your business model. That deal doesn't exist until you have a contract from them so for Gawd's sake don't get any credit or anything off the back of it. You might actually struggle to get a business loan without a contract from a client, now that I come to think on it.

All the best, chief.
If it works out even reasonably well you'll have a much greater sense of satisfaction than most of the working population.

[bmw156]

Just a quick point, Mr rally man mentioned you HAVE to be a coded welder. I run production for manufacturing. We have 4 welders, all who have never done coding. We Supply NHS and other medical outfits, so its not like its not important either!

On subject, I say go for it. If you have the money, and confidence then what is the worst that can happen?

Also if you have a degree then you must be fairly competent. I came out of a degree a couple of years ago, feeling I had learnt alot. After being here for nearly 3 years I have learnt so much more. So a good start might be to go with a normal job learn more and more and then start a business.

[Dez]

Mar 16, 2012 0:01:17 GMT penrhynrallycentre said:

a load of plums

Mar 16, 2012 9:08:15 GMT ianboyd said:

more rubbish.

don't listen to all the negs, i didnt have any of these problems.

being coded or having certificates and qualifications means NOTHING. reputation and quality of work is everything. by far and away the best people i know in this game are totally unqualified. good work speaks for itself. conversely ive seen people with lots of bits of paper turn out some right toss.
i wont go as saying the 'youre only as good as your last job' cliche, cos thats not true, but your portfolio is what speaks for itself. if you think its good, make sure you take plenty of pics of it before it goes out.

80k investment? what planet are you on? i started out with less than 3k, bought the absolute essentials, then priced everything else i needed into jobs. i don't have a quarter of that to date in ALL my equipment, nad its not like i havent got sod all, I'm just careful about where i invest, and what on. i only bought new if i really had to, or the warranty made it worthwhile. half my tooling is from the '50s and cost a pittance, yes is vastly superior to new stuff. with the kind of thing youre talking about making, youll end up making a lot of your equipment yourself, jigs, etc. anyway.

no landlord or renting trouble at all, i had a choice of 3 all desperate to get me in a unit, even though i do a 'dirty motor trade' job. if their unit is empty and costing them money they will want to get you in there asap, end of. i went straight in, no deposit no minimum lease.

the simple way to make customers pay on time is don't give them anything til they have. no cash, no product, simple as that. i don't expect to go into a shop pick something up and come back and pay for it when i fancy it, so they shouldnt either. if they cant afford to pay for it when its ready to collect, they're not really the type of people you want to be working for anyway.

i find with suppliers if you don't go in expecting credit, then theyll give you it. it can get their back up if theres no relationship built up and youre expecting them to give you lots of credit immediately. settle your first few transactions immediately so they know youre good for the money, and they're generally happy to cut you some slack in the future.

the long and short of it is if youre determined enough, it will work. only you know if youre got the mentality to do that.
don't look to limit yourself just to motorsport though. when i was setting up id fab anything for anyone, i did plant repairs, railway contracts, vintage commerical restoration, even MOT repairs for other people on site. it can help with the cashflow when work is short.

[ianboyd]

Mar 16, 2012 15:16:17 GMT Dez said:

Mar 16, 2012 0:01:17 GMT penrhynrallycentre said:

a load of plums

Mar 16, 2012 9:08:15 GMT ianboyd said:

more rubbish.

don't listen to all the negs, I didnt have any of these problems.

being coded or having certificates and qualifications means NOTHING. reputation and quality of work is everything. by far and away the best people I know in this game are totally unqualified. good work speaks for itself. conversely ive seen people with lots of bits of paper turn out some right toss.
I wont go as saying the 'youre only as good as your last job' cliche, cos thats not true, but your portfolio is what speaks for itself. if you think its good, make sure you take plenty of pics of it before it goes out.

80k investment? what planet are you on? I started out with less than 3k, bought the absolute essentials, then priced everything else I needed into jobs. I don't have a quarter of that to date in ALL my equipment, nad its not like I havent got sod all, I'm just careful about where I invest, and what on. I only bought new if I really had to, or the warranty made it worthwhile. half my tooling is from the '50s and cost a pittance, yes is vastly superior to new stuff. with the kind of thing youre talking about making, youll end up making a lot of your equipment yourself, jigs, etc. anyway.

no landlord or renting trouble at all, I had a choice of 3 all desperate to get me in a unit, even though I do a 'dirty motor trade' job. if their unit is empty and costing them money they will want to get you in there asap, end of. I went straight in, no deposit no minimum lease.

the simple way to make customers pay on time is don't give them anything til they have. no cash, no product, simple as that. I don't expect to go into a shop pick something up and come back and pay for it when I fancy it, so they shouldnt either. if they cant afford to pay for it when its ready to collect, they're not really the type of people you want to be working for anyway.

I find with suppliers if you don't go in expecting credit, then theyll give you it. it can get their back up if theres no relationship built up and youre expecting them to give you lots of credit immediately. settle your first few transactions immediately so they know youre good for the money, and they're generally happy to cut you some slack in the future.

the long and short of it is if youre determined enough, it will work. only you know if youre got the mentality to do that.
don't look to limit yourself just to motorsport though. when I was setting up id fab anything for anyone, I did plant repairs, railway contracts, vintage commerical restoration, even MOT repairs for other people on site. it can help with the cashflow when work is short.

It will be easy then, If I followed your most excellent advice then I would not have been stung for £300k in 2001 by that telecoms company that went bust, have you thought of consultancy?

[cobblers]

I might be reading too much into this, but I don't think that Dez or Robin are interested in the kind of work where you end up being owed £300k by a telecoms company.

[ianboyd]

Mar 16, 2012 16:00:52 GMT cobblers said:

I might be reading too much into this, but I don't think that Dez or Robin are interested in the kind of work where you end up being owed £300k by a telecoms company.

yes your right your reading to much into it!

[RobinJI]

Thanks guys, a lot of good advice and opinions (quite varied it seems). It all really helps. Like I've said already, I'm not about to jump head first into something without doing the research first, I'd make sure it was relatively low risk before I put my neck on the line. The words of caution have definitely gone heeded, and the words of encouragement listened to. Don't worry, I'm not going to go into anything blind.


Dez and bmw156, thanks for the info on the coding, I didn't think you HAD to be coded from a legal point of view, but I thought it was worth double checking, and I wasn't sure if it would help other things even if it wasn't essential. From what I've seen of the industry, there seems to be quite a few people out there who aren't.


To explain the situation a little bit further, the work I'd hopefully be doing for the other company would be substantial jobs rather than lots of little bits (2 weeks work per customer order). They'd be providing jigs and all the materials, with any plate work pre-lazer-cut. The work I'd have to do for them I could do with just a MIG, a pillar drill, a chop-saw/bandsaw/alternative, and a grinder. Any additional equipment would be optional, and would just open up what jobs I could do for other customers.

I'd be hoping to work closely with this company, and the owner seems willing to help me out in any way he can, as their business has changed direction and I wouldn't be competition to them, I would be able to provide their customers with services they can't or don't have time to do any more, but still get asked if they can. (Potentially under their name in some cases). The owner's also kindly offered to put me in contact with his accountant, and any other sources I need along those lines.

Some form of contract from these guys is something I'd be wanting as a pretty early priority, but I'm not going to get a contract from them without a business model, which is why I've started looking into things a bit more seriously.

I'd definitely be open to doing any non-motorsport relevant work that came my at first, it's better than sitting around not getting any income. I'd just be aiming to steer the business towards that industry, as it's an industry I enjoy, and I'm pretty knowledgeable in.

I wouldn't be letting any work out of my sight until I've got payment unless it's for a close friend, and even then I'd be cautious. I'm a trusting guy, but I'm not a fool, and unfortunately I've seen my share of the bad side of people. I'd ideally look for a lot of my work to be bolt on up-grade parts made in low production numbers, so a lot of the time I'd be selling a product rather than a service, so would obviously be wanting money in my account before the product leaves my sight.

Units and work-space aren't really an issue. I live in a rural area where industrial space is cheep and readily available, and I know enough people that I'm well aware of the cost of the work space it's self in terms of rent. There's two industrial parks withing 9 miles of home both advertising multiple units that would be suitable. Bills I can't know for sure, until the first ones came through, but I've got a good idea of the ball-park I'd be looking at.

In terms of investment, I'd be hoping to take Dez and composimmonite's approach of building up tooling as I go, starting out with the minimum I need to keep the initial investment down to a realistic minimum. Besides anything else, although my lack of commitments at this point in life reduces the risk to some extent, it also means people wanting to lend me money have little in terms of credit history or collateral to go off, so I can't imagine I'd get approved for huge amounts of finance anyway.

As Dez says, a lot of the tools for this work can be improvised or made by my self for a relatively small cost which I'm more than happy to do, I'd likely have quiet patches, and it's something to keep my self productive during these times. I'd start with the minimum tools needed to do the job, and then build up a collection over time. This would likely make me less profitable to start with as jobs may take longer, but then I've spent less money, so I don't need as much immediate profit.

Business Interruption/sickness insurance: This is definitely something I'd be keen to get. I'd forgotten to mention it, but it was something I'd considered. Thanks for the reminder.


Thanks again for all the advice, this place really is amazing. Any further advice (and any corrects of anything I've said) is obviously very welcome.

[jrevillug]

I don't have much to add to this discussion, but I will say that it's worthwhile considering setting up a limited company.

Yes, there are more reporting requirements - but the advantage is that if it all goes horribly wrong you won't be personally liable for any debts incurred. You'd lose your investment, but nothing else.

My Dad has been self-employed as a sole trader in the past, and he has said that if he were to ever go it along again then he'd go for a Limited company.