eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sept 14, 2018 6:51:23 GMT
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And then this happened...    So, here I was thinking I'd just quickly pick up the Granada to do the relatively simple jobs that needed doing. I got home from work, quickly ate and then biked over to the garage. Uncovered the car, started her up and drove it out. No indication of anything wrong at all. Engine fired up in one go, ran fine and throttle response was normal and smooth. So I closed the garage behind me and set off, comfortably. I came to a light and had to stop for a bit, no worries. As the light turned green I make the turn and almost without a sound the engine noise just disappears... I coast to a stop on the right lane of a two lane street so thankfully people can pass. But as I try restarting I just get a bit of spluttering. It seems to want to fire up and to run then just not keep running. And this worsened to just not even giving any indication of fuel burning... I start pushing the car toward a safe haven 30 meters away, but the road is at a slight incline and the car at now probably 1450KG's is a heavy monster to push around on those wide tires. But despite plenty of traffic passing, not one stops to help. Until two very kind ladies come walking up and I see a little old Saxo parked. They without any words just start helping me push te car. I was very grateful as I was now safely off the road. The ladies left before I could even thank them properly as my out of shape a$$ was out of breath. I now open the bonnet and check basics first: fuses and relays which all seem to do as they should. I check fuel (I had put in 17 liters over the weekend) and filter. Looking ok. But I decide to add 6 liters more as the behaviour of the engine was the same as when fuel starvation was an issue way back when. This obviously did nothing to help the cause. On to the front, I could hear fuel pump number one, but was number two running as well? Hard to hear, but I thought so. At least the relief valve in the fuel line when pressed gushed out fuel so I figured I had fuel to the engine. Maybe It's flooded by now from testing so I try a thing I was once taught: starting with pedal fully down... Nope nothing still. I figured ignition issues but with no tools to mention (got taken out when I satred doing the new house) and no help to engage starter so I could watch for spark anyway I gave up on testing that. I pulled the leads and found a little moisture in the 4-6 cylinder bank, but not up high so the plug was not swamped. But maybe the energy for the spark leaked away through it. I just was thinking any possible explanation however unlikely. With the things I could check myself exhausted, I gave up and made the call to the AAA or ANWB over here. It took them 35 minutes to get to me, but that was not too bad. There's always people who come and chat about the car so it passed soon enough. I explained the situation, showed him what the car did... He verified fuel as I cranked (I could only go off the pressure when I was by myself) which was abundant. He sprayed some starting fluid around the air filter to see if it was drawn in and to help diagnose spark. The vapour was drawn in but no ignition followed. We then checked for spark by taking a lead off and putting a spark plug in. We had spark. So at that point it got weird. I offered that maybe the spark was not the same on all 6 cylinders and he checked one from the other bank. This turned out to be very very weak. Still he'd have expected the car to fire but run rough if some had spark and some didn't. But maybe the spark plugs were now so wet with fuel that any spark left was not strong enough. We debated the chain jumping a tooth or so, as the BOA and BOB engines are poor in the chain/guide areas, but the ANWB man said that he didn't believe this to be the case. The engine sounded too healthy on the starter and one would expect knocks and bangs in that case. And I agreed. Certainly just after stranding when the engine still caught a bit, it all sounded normal as well, it just wouldn't stay running. Anyway, he diagnosed it as the coil pack as we had air, we had compression and we had fuel (at least to the engine) but poor ignition. Running out of options the sensible thing to do was not to tow me 5 km home, but 1km back to the garage. Which he did, sensibly and gracefully like a pro. So I ended up...  Now it was quickly getting darker and darker and with no light in the garage there was little point in cycling back and forth as thankfully at least I have on or more spare coil packs. So in the end nothing got done. I changed my work schedule for today so I can leave at 10 and have a few hours to tinker. If she'll run again then I'm convinced all will be fine. But if she won't.... well let's just not think about that yet! So plan is to check the sensors/leads in the front of the engine quickly to see if all is normal there. Then replace the coil pack. And from there we'll see. I'll fix the tell tale and the exhaust clamps anyway as I'm in there and it needs doing for sure, but if she won't run, I'm probably done for the day and will have to SORN... |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sept 14, 2018 6:52:23 GMT
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Good luck Alex, hope all goes well Thanks, see my update from just a second ago to know how much I need some luck right now... |
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gess
Part of things
Posts: 220 
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Sept 14, 2018 7:09:25 GMT
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Nooooo. This car will not give you a break.
I really hope the coil pack is the reason for the odd behavior and that you can get your car MOTed and ready.
It seems that everything is a struggle with this rebuild,really hope you solve the issues and finally can get to use your car as intended.
Fingers crossed.
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Sept 14, 2018 7:29:06 GMT
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Ah curse word! hopefully it's something easy to fix. If I wasn't stuck in the lab all day I'd come give you a hand.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sept 14, 2018 11:38:28 GMT
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Well, all is not well in Granada land....
I'd call it clinically dead but on life support....
I'm gutted to say the least.
The easy fix coil pack was not the cause. Actually, today the car fired right up! It ran fine for 1 minute when like yesterday without a pop, bang or his the engine sound just died away. And from then on it just did the same as yesterday. Nothing but crank. I changed out the coil pack anyway as a test but of course that was not it.
In all reality I think I now know what it is.... the loom is my suspect. I knew it was suffering cracked insulations but it worked perfectly in the donor so as long as you don't touch, they are fine. I think I now introduced water into it when washing the under bonnet area last week. The moisture shorting signals. I think this because the ecu had stored two faults. One was ignition system error and the other HEGO/Lambda on bank 1. Maybe if it dries out it will resume normal service. I'm having trouble placing the one minute run before dying.
Anyway, MOT/APK was definitely out. I decided to do as said and lifted the car enough to access the exhausts. Only to find after removing one clamp that I had bought the wrong size. And asif that wasn't another drop in the full bucket already, while doing this I found fresh ATF hanging from the subframe. Finally proof my steering system is leaking somewhere. Only the conclusion is it is filling up the right hand side bellow cover. That is why it was so hidden. Yesterdays steering without the pumps running must have disturbed the pressures enough to now show. This was a 450 euro rebuild less then 1500km's ago but in time two years ago. This curse word sucks. Will have to see if the rebuilder will do something as a warranty fix or something.
Also found that the current tired but working perfectly BOB engine leaks oil in every place it possibly can...
So with that I lowered the car, tried one more time having now also checked the HEGO wiring (could also have burned from the proximity of exhaust or something but in reality I knew this couldn't be as I am careful routing wires) and reseated an checked the car loom to engine and box loom connectors. No go again/still.
I just covered it up, shut the door and left before I'd do something I'd regret.
Gutted, completely.
All that money, all that work, all that time and effort, all the blood, all the sweat, all the tears and most of all all the love I've put in and still over two years I've never been able to fully and carefreely enjoy the car. And now it feels like I can do half of the work again.
The BOB can be sealed with new seals, a 350 euro set required.
The rack can be exchanged at a cost of about 900 euro.
The loom can be exchanged free or if remade from scratch 200 euro in wiring.
With the house in progress it's just not there anymore....
I'm a guy so I don't cry......but today I'm not far off...
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,060
Club RR Member Number: 77
Member is Online
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Sept 14, 2018 13:10:56 GMT
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Thats a bummer to hear about eurogranada  Just out of interest, does the tachometer register rpm when you are cranking in the non-start situation? If it doesn't, it may just be a pooped crankshaft sensor  |
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vulgalour
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 7,283
Club RR Member Number: 146
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Sept 14, 2018 15:40:55 GMT
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 Starting fine when cold and not when warm, as well as dying when it's warmed up, at least gives you *something* to go on, even if it's not a lot. I really wish you could catch a break on this one, you deserve it for all the effort you've put in. Hopefully it'll be something straightforward like the sensor mk2cossie mentions, or a simple overheating relay issue or something simple like that. Fingers crossed for you finding the solution and it being affordable at least, you deserve to be able to enjoy this machine. |
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Sept 14, 2018 17:33:25 GMT
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Ooh, temporary faults are a curse word to find If you REALLY think its the loom, then get a new one made - wiring is the biggest issue on modern cars so it's best to get new rather than exchange. Oil leaks, there are products to help with this - seal reviver etc, might be worth a try? if only minor leaks why not just accept it & top up oil regularly? |
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Sept 14, 2018 19:42:22 GMT
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fuel pump relay (which probably also powers critical electronic subsystems)
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Sept 14, 2018 20:42:02 GMT
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good to hear you received the magazine and sad to hear about the problems you have. Like others suggest, it could be (and hope it is) a small issue
Peter
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eternaloptimist
Posted a lot
Too many projects, not enough time or space...
Posts: 2,578
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Sept 14, 2018 20:50:42 GMT
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Crank position sensor?
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XC70, VW split screen crew cab, Standard Ten
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Sept 14, 2018 21:40:07 GMT
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Of the 2 faults storred the hego won't stop it running so I would go for the ignition, crank sensor is very sensitive to interference so as suggested I would go for it or it's wiring.
For the engine if it has started leaking all of sudden I would check the breather system is clear before doong anything else.
For the steering is there a rack off a more modern car you could use? Finding decent parts to remanufacture on something older and relatively rare is a problem.
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sept 17, 2018 15:24:04 GMT
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Thats a bummer to hear about eurogranada Just out of interest, does the tachometer register rpm when you are cranking in the non-start situation? If it doesn't, it may just be a pooped crankshaft sensor Good question, but I think mine never did while cranking, only when running. Or it just starts up so fast that I've never noticed it doing so sooner. Crankshaft sensor is easliy swapped for a spare. Starting fine when cold and not when warm, as well as dying when it's warmed up, at least gives you *something* to go on, even if it's not a lot. I really wish you could catch a break on this one, you deserve it for all the effort you've put in. Hopefully it'll be something straightforward like the sensor mk2cossie mentions, or a simple overheating relay issue or something simple like that. Fingers crossed for you finding the solution and it being affordable at least, you deserve to be able to enjoy this machine. I don't think one can speak of a cold/warm situation in this case. The engine runs for a minute or less so how much warm up can have occurred? I'm having a hard time interpreting this issue as for that first minute of the day (I don't yet know how long has to be between starts for it to run again) it just runs 100% fine, even responds to throttle normally etc. Ooh, temporary faults are a curse word to find If you REALLY think its the loom, then get a new one made - wiring is the biggest issue on modern cars so it's best to get new rather than exchange. Oil leaks, there are products to help with this - seal reviver etc, might be worth a try? if only minor leaks why not just accept it & top up oil regularly? Yes, temporary issues are always tough. But the weird thing is that the ANWB/AAA guy at the non start situation basically seemed to confirm air, fuel and spark (and compression). In theory the engine needs nothing more... I have a spare loom that has been remade for this section of the engine. So I could swap over. It's just a mammoth task with the engine and box in the car... I always knew these engines to be oily. All the ones I acquired have been black with oily muck when bought. But as my car was virgin clean, I know see all the places it leaks. And this means rocker cover gaskets, sump gasket(s) as a minimum. Probably crank seals. It's just creating a mess in my nice engine bay and suspension. Of course the plan was for this engine to be proof of concept. And for the one that was bad before to be rebuilt and resealed as a new unit. To go on forever. But due to house move, expected rebuild cost and also because the tired engine performed perfectly so far (all issues have been non engine related so far) this has never materialised... fuel pump relay (which probably also powers critical electronic subsystems) I don't know if relays go bad in this fashion. But to check would require either additional help to monitor the pumps or swapping the relays. I've got spares so I'll give that a go as well. good to hear you received the magazine and sad to hear about the problems you have. Like others suggest, it could be (and hope it is) a small issue Peter Thanks Peter! I enjoyed the article very much. And I hope it's something simple too, but asof right now it's not clear and doesn't really feel like it will be. But I will not give up on this car! Was suggested before and I will swap for a spare to check. Of the 2 faults storred the hego won't stop it running so I would go for the ignition, crank sensor is very sensitive to interference so as suggested I would go for it or it's wiring. For the engine if it has started leaking all of sudden I would check the breather system is clear before doong anything else. For the steering is there a rack off a more modern car you could use? Finding decent parts to remanufacture on something older and relatively rare is a problem. I agree, HEGO should have kept it running. That is also why the AAA man did not quite get why with all three engine needs met, it would not run/catch. Wiring is partially fixed on this engine. I might end up swapping looms as I still think the coincidence after washing (water ingress) is to big.But first relays and sensor swaps... Breather is a open filter type, so no obstructions there. It's also not really suddenly leaking, it's just showing more and more why they are all covered in muck when you find them. They seem to leak all over! The steering rack will probably or hopefully be regarded warranty by the builder. It has not done 1500 km's possibly even less. But it's been installed for just over two years now. I can get a replacement that is supposed to be guaranteed on exchange basis, but at a cost of 900-1000 euro's it's costly. The rebuild was costly at 450 as well... I'm still having trouble with the fact the car can run fine for a minute or so before this issue comes into play. |
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Sept 17, 2018 16:09:08 GMT
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fuel pump relay (which probably also powers critical electronic subsystems) I don't know if relays go bad in this fashion. But to check would require either additional help to monitor the pumps or swapping the relays. I've got spares so I'll give that a go as well. Sorry to hear you are having troubles Alex - Fuel pump relay or (if my memory is right) your immobiliser would cause these kind of issues I would think. I am away this weekend for a race, but I have a few hours free after work tomorrow / weds / thursday if you want a spare pair of hands to test things. |
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Sept 17, 2018 17:50:44 GMT
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It's got to be electrical.
Is it possible to hook it up to a computer to watch/log whatever fails?
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Sept 17, 2018 17:52:10 GMT
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sept 18, 2018 7:46:40 GMT
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It's got to be electrical. Is it possible to hook it up to a computer to watch/log whatever fails? I think so too. Yesterday I went back to the car and it ran first touch for a few minutes. Longer than before and also I could stop and restart twice. But just as a little hope that the issue was resolved (moisture evaporated?) was starting to set in it died again. It must have run for 5 minutes at various rpm's from stationary to 3500. Anyway from then on same story. First and second try there's still a catch but won't run situation that from then on turns to a won't catch or run situation. When it died this time I heard the fuel pump at the back still running for a second or so. The front pump is too far down and away and quiet to judge. I didn't have my code reader with me this time, but last time I read the ecu (the day after my unfortunate stranding) it said P0135 and P0138. Meaning ignition system failure and HEGO bank 1 issues. Hence the coil pack swap, but also my suspicion that it's wiring loom related. I can also still swap the edis unit as that is also part of the ignition system. The codes were erased to see if that did anything but no. And they did not reappear that session, though I erased them after id had died already. So just from trying to start no codes were stored. Maybe now having run for a few minutes there are codes again but I'll need to check. At least I'm in a better mindeset about all this now. Worst case: the car comes home (to the new home) on a trailer and I can work on it over winter. But of course I'll be trying to test the easy stuff first, swapping a sensor or relay here or there even though I have little faith in that exercise. On the oil additive, I'll add something to the oil after an oil and filter change... |
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eurogranada
Europe
To tinker or not to tinker, that is the question...
Posts: 2,556
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Sept 18, 2018 8:14:18 GMT
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Sorry to hear you are having troubles Alex - Fuel pump relay or (if my memory is right) your immobiliser would cause these kind of issues I would think. I am away this weekend for a race, but I have a few hours free after work tomorrow / weds / thursday if you want a spare pair of hands to test things. Hey Sam, As usual, thanks for your kind offer. I will probably take you up on helping me. I myself am unable to do much this week because of other priorities, but when I have had the time to gather some stuff (spares) to aid testing, I'd be more than happy to have your capable mind and hands on hand. The car isn't going anywhere like this so we can plan for when it fits us both. Meanwhile I'm just researching as much as I can. |
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Sept 18, 2018 9:38:15 GMT
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As it has an edis the diagnosis is simpler, edis will still provide spark (all be it at a a fixed advance) even with the ECU signal disconnected, to run it needs earth (a really good one as it is switching the coil power), power and the crank signal plus the connections to the coil pack but I would be very surprised if all 3 of these failed at the same time and rule these out initially.
To me it sounds like something is electrical warming up as it carries load and breaking down when it reaches a certain temperature, in the old days this used to be classic behaviour of the capacitors used in the points type ignition system but I have also seen ignition amplifiers behaving the same way. My money is on the crank sensor or edis module.
If the edis has failed how is it mounted, I seem to remember it should be mounted to a flat metal surface to dissipate heat.
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Sept 18, 2018 9:52:21 GMT
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Definitely electrical.
Could be as Kevins describes above, could also be a loose connection (earth?) that gets hot so the connection breaks down due to heat.
I'd go through every earth you can find to check for tightness, then just unplug and plug back in again every connector (cleans contacts by doing this) on the entire engine loom, it will be something stupid like this that is the fault.
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