1972 Granada Mk1 coupe build - Still going... 14-10-2024

[eurogranada]

Aug 24, 2022 16:32:33 GMT mk2cossie said:

If its any help at all eurogranada I have fitted a cheapo fuse/relay box on my mk2 that came from Amazon Prime, and was about £12.
Came with a load of terminals to crimp on to the wires that then clip up underneath for the required fuses or relays

Thanks for showing. Something like this could do depending on how I'm going to fuse the power feeds as there are quite a lot.

[eurogranada]

I could use a little mojo boost to be honest...

I've been spending my evenings and quite some weekend time on the wiring again. I've finished tracing the ecu connections to their connectors, ground and power connections and am now working my way back from all the connectors to make sure I have accounted for each and every wire in the loom. This latter step is slow going as I want to use as much as possible the original ford connector numbers but they are not all identified in my documentation. This means tracing wiring diagrams to find the numbers. And although the ecu connector shows around 70 occupied wires of the 104 pins, when you start looking into all the connections between connectors there's quite a lot more to go through. But my understanding is ever growing, alas my resistance to getting on with this job is also ever growing. Even though I'm well on my way.

Only after completing the initial inventory I'll also have to streamline my analysis as the registration is just pretty rough. There were so many different situations that my initial setup that worked for the ecu pin registration is just lacking for the rest. So a little more work to be done there. But this should make me able to design a new power and ground distribution layout as well as determine all needed colours of wires and thicknesses to recreate the actual looms.

And I made another mojo killing mistake earlier this weekend. I pushed the car outside on the winch and had a look see if I could still make sense of all the wiring that was left in there and boy oh boy. Of course there has to be a situation where I can't possibly be sure of one wire. I have a picture of it that I just cannot reconsile with anyhing I see in the car at this time... argh... and I thought I'd taken enough precautions for just this but apparently not.

Add to that the non BOB related extra circuits that I put in for power seats, power windows, power sockets, the powered folding mirrors, bluetooth and audio and there's still a lot to dismantle and rearrange. To get things to a higher level of quality. Although I'm still somewhat in two minds over what constitutes better quality. Cutting all wires at both connector ends and splicing in new ones means two solder connections per wire but nice new flexible wire. Opposite this is my sucpision of a lot of wires that may look fine but feel somewhat rigid/stiff and may be past their best in that sense.

With every step I dread the increase in cost and the time I'll need to get it all done... I would really make the most of the warm weather before the cold sets in as my workspace is too small to work on this indoors... So I'm also feeling the pressure as well.

[westbay]

Keep going Alex , the worst is over, you're into restore-renew-improve stage now ... 👍

[rblote]

Kop op joh. Effe door bijten en je bent er. Je hebt een super gave auto.
Laat je je niet klein maken door een paar draadjes!!

[mk2cossie]

Sounds like ypu are working through it eurogranada and thats half the battle with working on anything car related

With regards to wiring and wire replacement, I would suggest avoiding soldered joints where ever possible. Theres a reason motorsport car looms don't have any soldered joints

[blackpopracing]

Yes, crimp connections & heatshrink every time.

[eurogranada]

Aug 30, 2022 18:50:54 GMT blackpopracing said:

Yes, crimp connections & heatshrink every time.

That is all well and fine and to some extent obvious if you can get new pins for connectors, but if that is not an option?? If you have to extend from a few cm's of original wire? Is this still the right way to go? What type of crimp should I then buy? And that would also mean a bunch of different sizes as there are a lot of different wirethicknesses which are often even combined.

[blackpopracing]

Where possible - yes. Sometimes soldering is the only way - but try to only solder a few mm of wire rather than a whole length of the joint.

For joints, THESE are excellent, crimp each end and a bit of heatshrink over them tp insulate. Adhesive heatshrink is my preference as its a little thicker and seals the joint completely.

Crimpers - not cheap for a full set but worth every penny, This Set is good, for the above ferrules you would use the 'B' crimps in the set shown.

[eurogranada]

Aug 30, 2022 20:54:29 GMT blackpopracing said:

Where possible - yes. Sometimes soldering is the only way - but try to only solder a few mm of wire rather than a whole length of the joint.

For joints, THESE are excellent, crimp each end and a bit of heatshrink over them tp insulate. Adhesive heatshrink is my preference as its a little thicker and seals the joint completely.

Crimpers - not cheap for a full set but worth every penny, This Set is good, for the above ferrules you would use the 'B' crimps in the set shown.

Thanks very much for that Blackpop, I was not aware of those types of ferules but now I see them I guess they are kind of obvious in their nature. I guess those are a good way to go as you are most definitely right, in original car wiring looms you do not really find any soldered joints. It's my understanding that solder joints are less preferred as heat cycling can cause them to crack. I guess in my mind a soldered joint is a joint that will never come apart, whereas crimped joints (of the well know color coded spade, ring and bullet types) I have in fact experienced can come loose. However, factory crimped on pins are usually extremely tight. So I guess this is probably both a quality of connector and quality of crimper issue.

I will for sure consider this approach, although if I go this route I'll probably end up buying a crimper for this specific type of ferules as the set is very nice but also very dear.

The only worry these ferules invoke with me is that they are a bit more bulky than a solder joint. A good solder joint can be as thin as the total insulated wire (I don't solder in blobs), a bit of heatshrink over them and it's a nice slim joint. These are a bit more bulky and given that I have connectors with 70, 35 and 16 wires this may become an issue. Although I think staggering the joints a little might help (for instance pin row one joined at 2 cm, pin row 2 at 4cm or similar) as this way you don't have all the ferules in the same spot causing a big bulk in one spot. Although I don't want to leave too much of the original wiring as it's just not the greatest quality.

[kevins]

The main reason manufacturers don't use solder for splices in harnesses is the time thus cost it takes there is also potential to fatigue where the solder ends if the outer of the cable is not supported, That said I have also come across several instances of the crimps they use failing as well. Soldering is of course widely used in the electronic modules where it can be automated supported and cleaned afterwards.

The crimps with the heat shrink outer and sometimes with solder inside are great but as you say can get very bulky, I would usually use solder and heat shrink tubing for something like this, then bind the whole lot together to make it stiff and less prone to vibration, just make sure you don't have any spikes of solder which could penetrate the heat shrink.

[eurogranada]

Aug 31, 2022 8:49:38 GMT kevins said:

The main reason manufacturers don't use solder for splices in harnesses is the time thus cost it takes there is also potential to fatigue where the solder ends if the outer of the cable is not supported, That said I have also come across several instances of the crimps they use failing as well. Soldering is of course widely used in the electronic modules where it can be automated supported and cleaned afterwards.

The crimps with the heat shrink outer and sometimes with solder inside are great but as you say can get very bulky, I would usually use solder and heat shrink tubing for something like this, then bind the whole lot together to make it stiff and less prone to vibration, just make sure you don't have any spikes of solder which could penetrate the heat shrink.

Thanks for expanding my understanding of the use of solder in cars. So proper support and being well tied together is of importance in using solder joints. Soldering is cheaper and I'm well equipped for that. The current loom also has plenty of solder joints that still look ok. I was just looking for what would be best. But that you'd have no problem using solder for this purpose is good to know.

It may come down to the budget in the end.

[blackpopracing]

The negative issues with solder are a few;

The flux can creep up the wires and end up rotting them (look at old wiring and see the black copper strands extending up around 150mm from the original joint)

It introduces a hard part of wiring (soldered joint) and a weak point (end of soldered joint where wire strand start - potential fracture point).

Postives are;

Easy
joints can be small
permanent

The crimp joints - (I would always crimp crimpable connectors) are similar;
Negatives;

Can be bulkier - especially if jointing many individual cables next to each other (very good for joining multiple cables together though).

Positives;
Easy
Permanent
no cable rot
no weak point

As with most things - each have their place.

[kevins]

you can minimise the rot to the cable by washing the worst of the flux away, with traditional fluxes this is done with alcohol, or you can use a water based flux and wash with distilled water.

[eurogranada]

Thank you both for your views and explanation!! Really... Plenty to think about. You'll see when the time comes which approach I've taken.

[mk2cossie]

If what blackpopracing has suggested seem too bulky for joining wires, I have used something like this with good results

smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08PL4VV5B/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1&pf_rd_p=940bda19-f0f4-4883-b452-52aff480df74&pf_rd_r=15WZ2X51D7ZVFB8DP9MP&pd_rd_wg=lHRUs&pd_rd_w=lOKdn&content-id=amzn1.sym.940bda19-f0f4-4883-b452-52aff480df74&pd_rd_r=56e748e3-4063-4c13-b328-8513727bdff2&s=diy&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwy&smid=AI12MG02JKGW2&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySFlITVNRSEg4QTdYJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzUxODU0MzJZNjROQjlGWDRKVSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDE1OTg4M1BCNUxIUlowTU9EMSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbDImYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


Hopefully that link works

[nickduncan]

Sept 3, 2022 13:26:32 GMT mk2cossie said:

If what blackpopracing has suggested seem too bulky for joining wires, I have used something like this with good results

smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08PL4VV5B/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1&pf_rd_p=940bda19-f0f4-4883-b452-52aff480df74&pf_rd_r=15WZ2X51D7ZVFB8DP9MP&pd_rd_wg=lHRUs&pd_rd_w=lOKdn&content-id=amzn1.sym.940bda19-f0f4-4883-b452-52aff480df74&pd_rd_r=56e748e3-4063-4c13-b328-8513727bdff2&s=diy&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWwy&smid=AI12MG02JKGW2&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySFlITVNRSEg4QTdYJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzUxODU0MzJZNjROQjlGWDRKVSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDE1OTg4M1BCNUxIUlowTU9EMSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbDImYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl


Hopefully that link works

These are what I use, very good crimps and the tool isnt dear either. Just stick a heat shrink over it and away you go

[jonomisfit]

On my escort I think I did one solder joint, and everything else was crimps.

The others have gone through the pros and cons of both. I used to work in subsea connectors in Oil and Gas and it was a big debate there with both types being used.

I've used those tube crimps in a few places, the issue I found was doing multi wire earth splices. You simply can't get enough cables in. Ford's way of dealing with this on the escort was to crush the wires together with a huge amount of force until it consolidates and then insulate them. It will not pull appart. I tried some destructive testing when I redid my loom.

I found these style open barrel crimps to be a useful alternative. You can get quite a lot of copper in and crimped well.

www.digikey.co.uk/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/41974/4895060?utm_adgroup=Connectors%20and%20Interconnects&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping_Supplier_TE%20Connectivity&utm_term=&productid=4895060&gclid=Cj0KCQjwmdGYBhDRARIsABmSEeOkHSZx4HFCyDN-8rHRgmKKr26Kh3ivam7cVejfId5IelhXzV97ylgaAsy0EALw_wcB

I do a "pull test" after each crimp is done. You should be able to give it a strong pull and it not release.

[kevins]

They are very close to what the oem's use with a bit of shrink wrap. Inside the car they all work fine, wet areas need something that seals like Blackpop suggested.

[jonomisfit]

A good way I've found to seal crimps is use a slightly oversized (diameter) piece of heat shrink over the crimp, squirt in PU adhesive (sikaflex EBT+) into the tube from both ends, then shrink the heat shrink.

Its messy, but means you can't get water wicking under the heat shrink as it all sticks together.

Its a bit like the "filler" goo they use on motorsport loom boots. But I have no idea if they use PU or another sealant. I doubt it's silicon.

[phil1380]

Sept 4, 2022 10:31:58 GMT jonomisfit said:

A good way I've found to seal crimps is use a slightly oversized (diameter) piece of heat shrink over the crimp, squirt in PU adhesive (sikaflex EBT+) into the tube from both ends, then shrink the heat shrink.

Its messy, but means you can't get water wicking under the heat shrink as it all sticks together.

Its a bit like the "filler" goo they use on motorsport loom boots. But I have no idea if they use PU or another sealant. I doubt it's silicon.

Raychem S1125 is the adhesive used with the shrink boots. Raychem DR-25 is the product group for shrink tube and shrink boots, the important bit is DR - which stands for Diesel Resistant, it is not like "normal" shrink tube hence why it's more expensive.

Phil.