1972 Granada Mk1 coupe build - Cursed? No doubt! 27-06-2024

[eurogranada]

Jun 28, 2023 9:27:30 GMT kevins said:

or you could go for AN6 PTFE, pretty expensive but probably the easiest to thread through and should last pretty much indefinitely. 

Personally I wouldn't get too hung up on the safety aspect of the swirl pot, the fuel tank is in a similar place to a Pinto after all, it is what 50 year old cars were like and is a personal choice on how much risk you want to take, much the same thing  as riding a motorbike or horse.

Difference between the Pinto and the granada is that in the Pinto and Mustang (at least the 66 I owned before), the fuel tank WAS the bottom of the boot, whereas the granada has the tank in a similiar position, yet with a full metal boot floor above it. So any fuel tank rupture would never (or at least not as easily) saturate the interior cabin space via the rear seat as on the Pinto's. I never quite understood why the Mustang was never subject to the same discussion. Maybe as it had just a little more room between the tank and the diff?

[mk2cossie]

eurogranada I have run 8mm ID cupro nickel in place of the standard factory nylon stuff.
Used for both feed and return to the tank. Also only run a Bosch external pump with no external swirl pot as well (tank has since been modded with a big ole baffle as it didn't like left hand bends with half a tank).

But I've never suffered fuelling issues with that, so my advice to you would be upgrade the front to rear fuel lines ), making them both as big as you can get away with.

The fuel return testing you have done was with the engine running, and the return to the fuel tank in the receptacle if I've read that right. If so, the fuel flow on the second test looks about what I'd expect 😑

[sebastiaan]

Any news, eurogranada ?

[eurogranada]

Jul 10, 2023 8:50:14 GMT sebastiaan said:

Any news, eurogranada ?

Hi Sebastiaan,

Thanks for asking. Unfortunately there isn't really...

Other commitments and either bloody hot or very wet days combined with my energy levels have meant no real progress on the matter. My workbench being a mess doesn't help either. I'm also possibly a bit Granada tired...I'd hoped to have a good driving season this year and worked my ass off to get it at least ready for most of the season, but I still find myself chasing drivability issues. I've been to one meeting...have yet to attend an oldtimer/classic car tour which is what I'd envisioned myself doing with friends and family...

I have been driving the car for a bit on occasion (also on those hot days) and I do enjoy that quite a lot as it is a fun car to drive, but it's currently not enough to balance the other thoughts. As much as I love the car, the look, the model, what I've done with it, I even sometimes think about selling up and starting over with a Mustang or Fairlane or even a TR6. But realistically despite it being one of the best and nicest in the country of not the nicest, it'll not fetch enough to do just that. And the Americans will probably not even fit the garage if I could.

It seems to behave pretty well at the moment though. Fuel pump never got more than hand warm since improving the flow slightly, swirl pot is always warmer than I'd like. Plan is to measure the OD and ID of the current fuel lines and removing the official fittings that came with the lines as they do diminish the ID quite a bit at the transitions. I'd like to then just slide the right ID rubber hose over them, clamp them and see if they are leak free and how much flow has improved. But this may mean I need some new fittings on the fuel pump and the swirlpot to accomodate te larger ID hose. And what sizes should those be... I can't remeber. And it could also show that flow improvement is dismal and I really need to upgrade the lines.

I've wanted to investigate the matter a few times over the past weeks but I just didn't get to it. The prospect of being covered in fuel and preventing the tank from emptying when the hoses are changed over has held me back a bit too.

Really I just need to get my ass in gear but it's just not that easy at the moment.

And a bit further in the back of my head is the fact it really needs the engine sealed (which means such an amount of disassembly that I'd be better off building a fresh one, but that is a considerable cost) and the exhaust improved. And then I'm still running expensive fuel so doing the LPG thing would that make sense? So my head is filled with al sorts of thoughts...

[eurogranada]

Maybe I should just look at this pic more often...

[sebastiaan]

Appreciate the update and I think we all know the feeling all too well. It sounds to me like you'd be better off parking the car for a bit and enjoying life + summer + family for a few weeks (I guess you've got a summer break coming up like the most of us?). and then re-attack the darned thing afterwards.

If it makes you feel any better: I've got a new lambda sensor + exhaust damper laying around for what seems like an eternity already and can't get myself to actually fit them to the Alfa. Oh, and I've got some new door trims for a fiat 500 under my bed since last (no, last years!) fathers'day. I'll get around to it one day. There's more important stuff in life than cars.

[eurogranada]

Jul 10, 2023 18:30:09 GMT sebastiaan said:

Appreciate the update and I think we all know the feeling all too well. It sounds to me like you'd be better off parking the car for a bit and enjoying life + summer + family for a few weeks (I guess you've got a summer break coming up like the most of us?). and then re-attack the darned thing afterwards.

If it makes you feel any better: I've got a new lambda sensor + exhaust damper laying around for what seems like an eternity already and can't get myself to actually fit them to the Alfa. Oh, and I've got some new door trims for a fiat 500 under my bed since last (no, last years!) fathers'day. I'll get around to it one day. There's more important stuff in life than cars.

Leaving the car parked up would only add to the feelings described... The only remedy is setting myself to doing the work and driving the car again like I had envisioned.

We'll see about building the car a fresh engine later.

[kevins]

I've been meaning to fix the oil leak on my Lotus for 28 years, but it works and is reliable so it just goes on the will get done one day list.
Focus on making it reliable and safe so you can enjoy it, you've got years to do the rest, enjoy time with the kids while they still want to do things with you!

[eurogranada]

Jul 11, 2023 8:45:35 GMT kevins said:

I've been meaning to fix the oil leak on my Lotus for 28 years, but it works and is reliable so it just goes on the will get done one day list.
Focus on making it reliable and safe so you can enjoy it, you've got years to do the rest, enjoy time with the kids while they still want to do things with you!

Good advice. I think that is what I've been doing (or at least trying to) for the past few years but I keep running in to the next issue each and every time...

The car I think is safe, and hopefully the fuel flow is the last of the niggles for a while to come.

And I think all of you know, family always comes first with me...

[mk2cossie]

Jun 3, 2014 9:02:01 GMT eurogranada said:

Just bringing this forward, to say it wasn't a bad looking car before 😎

The colour change to blue however, has really brought out the shape of the car, and has made it many times visually more attractive 😃

[eurogranada]

Jul 11, 2023 16:34:56 GMT mk2cossie said:

Jun 3, 2014 9:02:01 GMT eurogranada said:

Just bringing this forward, to say it wasn't a bad looking car before 😎

The colour change to blue however, has really brought out the shape of the car, and has made it many times visually more attractive 😃

I felt the colour (2006 ford sea grey, which was brand new back then) suited the car. The white interior I had fabricated at huge cost but the material was never of the quality I expected for car use. In that guise it was a nice 10 footer... Up close after three years the paint had turned into a moon landscape... If it hadn't it probably would never have become what it is now...

Looking back only a few pages to the "after the big works" pictures it really does look smart. I just know it too well, know all the little faults. Luckily there are only very few.

I hope to find the will to get on with it this weekend.

[westbay]

Come on Alex you can do it! ... it's only a machine ! err hasn't got any AI ... has it ?

[eurogranada]

Well, I guess I did it...

Gave myself just enough of a kick in the rear to get going on the granada and garage workbench...

I had planned to make this a pictorial but given the results I don't know why I even should.

Anyway, here goes. After having a bad week being overly tired and having contracted something that has made my throat feel like razorblades and my head like a waterballoon with a hangover of hangovers (I don't drink) that oozes snot and closes the ears (like you were in a plane), taking off work for a day even to try and get some rest, I felt I had to do something at least a little useful with the weekend approaching. So friday morning after having dropped my wife and MIL at their "senior citizen" sport club, I set to the Granada.

I put it outside and did some initial checks and measurements so I knew the various line sizes etc. I then set to taking out the "restrictive" couplings. I removed the left front wheel for access and went on my merry way. That was a bit of a chore and after a more time than I had wanted I had the front done just before I had to go get my wife and MIL again.

After picking them up it was time for tea and a sandwich. And after that I sort of didn't have any will to go on with the job on the Granada at the rear. Access is more limited and it's working on your back under the jacked up (and supported) car. But, I managed to set myself to it. I did the same thing as I did in the front and then when done I had a measure. And I'll be damned if I....................didn't measure the exact same amount as before my 2,5 hours of work! Well I'll be damned! I measured the coupings and they were at least 1,5 mm smaller ID than the the lines themselves, but clearly that didn't do anything much for the flow. I was stunned and annoyed at spending all that time and work for no improvement at all. Now there was still the filter in between the tank and the pump, as I had forgotten to take that out.

So the only thing left to test is taking that out as well. See if it improves. If not I'll have to go up to 8mm ID as I now have 6 that measures as 5.5 but hey... I don't exect much from taking out the fuel filter at that point as the tank to filter to pump is all 8mm, but pump to swirlpot and back to fuel tank return is 6mm. So it may just be that the pump is being restricted by the 6mm outlet.

Still that is a final test before I put on 8mm lines. I do feel I now know what to buy to make al that work. If the pump still can't keep up, I'll replace that too, but I see that as the very last resort.

Before putting the car back in I made use of the extra room in the garage to clear ut my workbench area and put things back in their rightful place. I swept up the enitre floor and left the garage looking a lot more attractive and clean. I stil need to do a real clearout, cause I feel I've got too much stuff in there, but that will be a nice vacation activity.

Car drove well enough on the few trips I took it on but I just don't want to be caught out by this issue again. It did bring me a smile on one particular trip, with the windows and roof open and the stereo on way too loud...

[turbogeek]

Been following this one with interest - I think everyone on the forum here is willing you on to find and fix the issue.
Sounds like one of those days where at the time you feel frustrated with how much/little you achieved, but I hope on reading that back you realise you actually did a lot. Tidying up and "taking stock" of the situation is as important as getting on with the job. At least by the tests you've made, you now know what the problem ISN'T!
Could the filter be partially blocked? Are those little filters meant to work under EFI pressures and flows (~50PSI) vs carburettor-type pressures (~5PSI)?

[eurogranada]

Jul 17, 2023 13:51:34 GMT turbogeek said:

Been following this one with interest - I think everyone on the forum here is willing you on to find and fix the issue.
Sounds like one of those days where at the time you feel frustrated with how much/little you achieved, but I hope on reading that back you realise you actually did a lot. Tidying up and "taking stock" of the situation is as important as getting on with the job. At least by the tests you've made, you now know what the problem ISN'T!
Could the filter be partially blocked? Are those little filters meant to work under EFI pressures and flows (~50PSI) vs carburettor-type pressures (~5PSI)?

Yes, in hindsight you are quite right… and a while later I know it too, but it doesn’t undo the frustration felt before.
But I do feel I now know what to do to permanently improve flow.

The see through filter types are usually used on low pressure systems and in mine it is in the low pressure high volume bit. And it is brand new. It seems to be that my line size limits volume put through. If with bigger lines the volume does not go up, my pump is tired as although I can’t remember the volume of this one, it should be higher than the 55-60 liters an hour I get now. The lower spec ones I see new are 90-105… so that would be the last resort. I could use an injection pump here as well, but the trouble is the big difference in connection diameter.

[westbay]

"The see through filter types are usually used on low pressure systems and in mine it is in the low pressure high volume bit. And it is brand new."

Doesn't mean it may not have collasped with the high flow rate ...

[kevins]

Those plastic ones are designed for the flow rate of a carb usually with no or a very small return flow, also Carbs tend to damp out the peak flow demands. I suspect even a new one might be quite a significant restriction,I would try replacing it with a fuel injection filter and see what effect on flow it has.

[mk2cossie]

Jul 18, 2023 11:24:42 GMT kevins said:

Those plastic ones are designed for the flow rate of a carb usually with no or a very small return flow, also Carbs tend to damp out the peak flow demands. I suspect even a new one might be quite a significant restriction,I would try replacing it with a fuel injection filter and see what effect on flow it has.

This is a good idea! Maybe even one from a mk5 Fiesta petrol, as they aren't very big, and have 8mm barbs on them as well

[turbogeek]

Mahle KL-145 may also be a suitable filter (fitted in-tank to injected Ducati as well as some BMW and Triumph motorcycles) with 8mm hose barbs.
Looks like this:-
www.summitracing.com/parts/mah-kl145

NB - I have no figures for flow rate

[eurogranada]

Jul 18, 2023 9:37:11 GMT westbay said:

"The see through filter types are usually used on low pressure systems and in mine it is in the low pressure high volume bit. And it is brand new."

Doesn't mean it may not have collasped with the high flow rate ...

If only there was a high flow rate, lol. No the filter element itself looks perfect as well.