goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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I was really hoping that now I'd done all that work on this car, that I would no longer be lurching from one crisis to the next….. alas I don't think it's gonna be the case. Today started well, work sorted out by lunchtime, and afternoon of pottering in the garage. Since I'd had the car back on the road I have at times felt she was running a bit rougher than usual. It's never been 'smooth' and I've always been chasing the fact that I don't think it pulls as hard at the redline as I think it should. I figured the carbs could do with a once over as I've not touched them in a while. To add to the nice feeling, I was revelling in having a garage to shelter in and work on the car while it was drizzling outside. First up was a balance. These Solex carbs are known to suffer from spindle wear that makes them go out of balance over their life, and I've already drilled out the blanking plugs over the factory set bleed screws and tapped the intake manifold to take vacuum readings from so balancing them up was simple enough. The air bleeds were still pretty much in balance, but linkage between the front and rear carb definitely needed some tweaking, which made an instant improvement in smoothness. Next up was the idle mix adjustment. I say idle mix, but the mixture screw actually the mix upto about 2.5k rpm, so it effects around town driving quite a bit. Simple enough to do by ear, and all the barrels were a bit lean, probably as they were last set for the hight of summer. Now she's feeling a lot better, as good as she ever has. It was at this stage that the day took a turn for the worse. I figured I might as well pop the plugs out and give them a clean up and gap. Hmmmm….. The plug from cylinder 2 has got a big chunk of coked up curse word on it, can't work out what it is. Maybe something it inhaled by accident? Other than that they look a bit lean, but we knew that! I figured it was worth having a look down the plug holes to see if I could see anything that might have caused that issue with plug 2, I didn't but I did spot something much more worrying. It's nigh on impossible to take a photo of, but I'm pretty sure we're looking at a rusted pitted section to the bore of cylinder 1. In that picture you can't see the piston, from left to right across the plug hole you see clean bore up to a line (the level the piston must have sat for a period with water/condensation in it) then a rusty area then some more clean bore wall. Having spotted that I knew compression test was next. The factory spec is 160-170psi, I last tested it in February when the results were 130, 135, 138, 132 (But this was done with out realising the intake cam was a tooth out). Today I got 110, 165, 115, 155. Not promising. I'm going to do some more checks tomorrow with the help of a friend. I'm trying not to jump to conclusions for now. One thing I can say is that if there is any bore damage, I'm pretty sure it won't have been done in my ownership. Which means I've done about 13,000 miles with it. I've still got good oil pressure and she doesn't smoke/burn excessive oil. So I don't expect it to fail tomorrow or anything, but at the same time I'd feel silly if I were to ignore any underlying problem and end up break down in a couple of months time ( probably late at night miles from anywhere…). I think I must be getting institutionalised, as to be honest I don't feel as 'down' as I used to when the Lancia throws problems at me like this, I just think how it can be fixed and what other rusty old italian car I could drive while I fix it haha.
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Last Edit: Dec 6, 2013 20:46:52 GMT by goldnrust
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Arrgg. Sometimes it's good not to know..... The option I chose was to buy another engine to rebuild so I wouldn't be without the Fulvia for a long time.
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1987 Alfa Milano/75 1979 Alfetta Mille Miglia 1976 Alfetta GT race car 1970 Lancia Fulvia 1.3 Rallye S 1968 Fiat 850 spider
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duncanmartin
Club Retro Rides Member
Out of retro ownership
Posts: 1,320
Club RR Member Number: 70
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That doesn't sound too good. Maybe it's an opportunity to rebuild with a supercharger friendly setup? Silver linings and all that! You've done so much impressive work on the body, it was inevitable that you'd need to do some engine work!
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Ouch, that looks bad mate.
Did you try a second rest with a little oil in the bores?
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Koos
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That's a darn shame after so much hard graft! Italian cars are like children, you give them years of love and care and then they go wrong despite all your efforts...
Might clean up with a hone and new rings. Borrow a bore-scope to know for sure? If you could find a spare block & crank/rods then you could build up a fresh unit whilst still driving the rattler around.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Crisis averted! This morning my friend Ian popped over, and with the help of daylight we both had a better look into the engine. We are both sure there is pitting/rust of the bore wall in both cylinder 1 and cylinder 3. BUt, then we repeated the compression test and got very different results. Today we got 155, 165,170,160 psi. Much, much , much better! We repeated the test to be sure and it was still all good. I've done plenty of compression tests before, and never had one give me odd results like last nights test did. The only thing I can think is that last night the engine had got hot, but then cooled for 10-15 mins before I did the test. The radiator and block were still plenty hot, but maybe the rings had cooled? This wasn't adding up, how can an engine with compression results like that have rusted bores :S After some head scratching, I think we've solved the riddle. The Fulvia engine has got sloping topped pistons, so they come up flat to the head at TDC. We were looking down the bore at the outside wall, where the rings sit well blow the piston CROWN. I'm fairly sure now that the rust is above the travel of the rings. So basically, false alarm! Thank god! It still doesn't explain why it doesn't rev out quite like I feel it should. We played with float heights a bit, dropping the float did provide a little improvement at the top end at the expense of midrange. It just confirms to me that I really really need to get an AFR gauge sorted so I can get the carbs jetted right. After this I spent the rest of today with Ian working on getting Megasquirt installed on his aw11 mr2. Jumping from what felt like scratching in the dark with the problems on the Lancia back to the sheer level of diagnostic abilities that comes with something like Megasquirt really played on my mind this afternoon. I'm seriously considering buying another kit, to run the ignition side of my engine and to offer me data logging and diagnostic info for the carbs.
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crahel
Part of things
Posts: 210
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Good to hear the motor is not as bad as you thought. Fuel inject it using the carbs as throttle bodies.
C
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1973 Lancia Fulvia s2 coupe (sold) 1998 Audi a4 sedan (sold) 2000 Nissan maxima (sold) 2007 Audi convertible.
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You've got the 'Squirt skills mate, get it done and she'll go much better!
I have one of those Gunson exhaust gas doo-dads if you wanna borrow it.
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Koos
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duncanmartin
Club Retro Rides Member
Out of retro ownership
Posts: 1,320
Club RR Member Number: 70
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That's good news. :-) I think you should mega squirt it with bike throttle bodies. It would go nicely and sound awesome! And it would be reversible if you wanted to put it back to standard...
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Naaah keep it simple - plenum and single throttle body....filled by an Eaton M45 ;-)
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Koos
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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I think if I do go the Megasquirt way, then to start with I'll get the car up and running on the carbs, using the megasquirt for its 3d mapped electronic ignition. Then can save up for the rest of the parts needed for throttle bodies, if I can't get the carbs jetted right Lots of if going on here right now! I've got my old trials mountain bike on eBay, need to see how much it sells for and whether any of that money can fund this!
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Last Edit: Dec 8, 2013 16:27:39 GMT by goldnrust
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RobinJI
Posted a lot
"Driven by the irony that only being shackled to the road could ever I be free"
Posts: 2,995
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...I've got my old trials mountain bike on eBay... I hope that's because it's been replaced by a new one rather than that you've given up? Absolutely LOVE this car Steve, and the work you've done to it looks great. The plan with the Megasquirt sounds good.
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Last Edit: Dec 8, 2013 16:10:46 GMT by RobinJI
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Cheers mate. I gave up riding for anything beyond the social scene in about 2007 really, got too distracted with climbing. Then by the end of 2009 most of the guys I rode with had moved away/given up and I just stopped. The bike hasn't been ridden in anger since then. I did give it a total refurb the other week ready for the sale, stripped it all back to bare metal, polished some parts, painted others. Seems so easy and quick after working on cars so much! haha I think the old girl looks pretty good for herself really I was all psyched to sell it to fund a BMX as I know a few guys who still ride, but right now I'm thinking use the trials bike to fund Megasquirt and I'll scrape some cash for a BMX when the weather gets better and my enthusiasm builds again! I was just chatting with a friend and realised that if I go Megasquirt on the Fulvia that would be my 3rd Megasquirt build, and 7th vehicle I've helped build/mod/map Megasquirt for! I forget how much experience I have with it, I think I really would be silly to go with any other system, unless I just make the most of the standard original systems on the car. At the moment I'm all for Megasquirt, but there is a nagging thought in the back of my head, that it seems a shame to fill this car with modern systems. So I need to think on it for a few days. I did make a little progress with the running today , played with the carbs a bit, shall write an update when I have daylight for pictures, as pictures are worth 1000 words and all!
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crahel
Part of things
Posts: 210
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I would be very interested in a write up on the megasquirt system. I am going that way once cars body work is done.
C
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1973 Lancia Fulvia s2 coupe (sold) 1998 Audi a4 sedan (sold) 2000 Nissan maxima (sold) 2007 Audi convertible.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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I will do a write up if I go that way There should be plenty to write about, as far as I know there aren't any other narrow angle Lancia V4s running Megasquirt? The biggest mechanical challenge will be working out the ignition input signals. The narrow v4 will need a cam position sensor, not just crank, so somehow modifying the distributer is probably the way to go. I had a minor breakthrough with the carbs last night. I was messing about with the air box, tested out if it revved out any better without the baffle/flame trap. There always seems to be split opinion on the Lancia forums about whether the baffle makes the engine run better through the mid range because it effectively increased the intake runner length, or whether it was just there as a flame trap and causes a restriction at huh revs. Having taken mine out to experiment, I have to say it didn't feel like I lost any mid range, but I also didn't feel there was any gain. That said it did feel a bit 'surgey' at wipe open throttle high revs, so maybe that is a sign that it's flowing more air, but in turn going lean. Need that damn AFR gauge….. Anyway…. While I had the air box apart, I noticed that the venturis inside the carbs were loose. The chokes are fixed in these 35mm Solxes, but oddly the venturis are removable. They are held in place with grub screws. This is the second time mine have worked their way loose, and when they do work loose then the fuel starts leaking out between the barrel wall and the venturi, they also start to resonate at certain frequencies, and basically the fuelling goes all over the shop. So I nipped up the grub screws (and locktited them in place) and immediately its a bit smoother and is revving out cleanly and pulling hard for another 3-400 rpm. I stopped the scrubbing on the rear arches a while ago but noticed the right arch needed more flaring than the left to do so. This evening I've given the pan hard rod a quick adjustment, to push axel leftwards a bit. Finally I had a proper look at the drivers side window seal. It's never been right, and since re-hanging the door has been worse than ever. There's quite a large gap for weather to get in! It always looked like it didn't follow the surge of the window. Tonight I took the rubber off the chrome guide thats screwed to the B pillar, after which it became obvious that someone had put the chrome guide on upside down…. I flipped it round, and now the rubber follows the curved on the window. Much less draughty! Getting to the bottom of the snagging list now So should start on the bodywork tidying up soon.
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Last Edit: Dec 11, 2013 22:30:56 GMT by goldnrust
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Very nice! I'm glad you've solved the running problems for now, I really need you to do some magic on my BX's Solex as well.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Dec 14, 2013 23:30:36 GMT
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My ego took a big hit this week, as I've made a relatively dramatic improvement to the running of the Fulvia with simple maintenance. This is the first car I've used long term with a distributer, and the first full stop with points. So I've been regularly checking the points, replaced a couple of times and regapped. Likewise I've gapped and cleaned/replaced plugs when necessary. But I had completely overlooked the condition of the distributor cap and rotor arm….. It was only working on a friends car earlier in the week that I thought 'I don't think I've ever really checked this properly'. With the cap off, it looked fairly worn and dirty and tip of the rotor arm was pitted. So I have it a quick clean up and polished the pitting off the rotor arm. I put the car back together and it immediately ran better. Before cleaning the cap it seems to run out of pull at 5700-5900rpm. After the clean up it was responding off idle cleaner and pulling clean till 6100-6200rpm. Good times. In fact it ran so much better it made me question whether I really needed Megasquirt, or just to have my car running as good as it really should be! To add weight to the anti-Megasquirt argument was the cost. Because this car would need a complete loom, with relays, fuses and all the wiring for ECU control, not to mention all the sensors and the ECU itself, my basket on diyautotune.com was touching £500 just for the parts to run the ignition. It would cost me a further £4-500 to add fuel injection. Thats a lot of cash! So I shelved the Megasquirt idea and got on the phone to the Lancia parts specialists. I ordered a distributer cap, rotor arm, plug leads, plugs and a front wheel bearing (which I've been putting off changing for a long time due to its 3 figure price tag and difficulty of changing it!). Oooohhh shiny new parts! The wheel bearing can wait till I feel enthusiastic and happy to get covered in CV grease while dealing with the hub nut and lock ring which are invariably going to be stupidly tight! But this afternoon I whipped the old ignition parts out. And put the new bits in. From the moment I turned the key it ran better, from cold it revved up to ~1400 rpm on the choke revving cleanly, rather than slowing working its way up and splitting if you try and blip the throttle too aggressively. Once warm it idled about 400rpm higher, seemed smoother and when driven hard pulls out hard to 6700rpm 6700 is way past the 6200 redline, and much more what I'd expected from what I'd read online. Really really happy with that. I has made me have renewed confidence in the idea of sticking to old school tuning. I still want to get an AFR gauge set-up, as I think there's no other way to jet carbs properly without a dyno, but I think that's the only modern electronics which will be going near this car My current thinking is, get the AFR gauge up and running, check the carbs are fuelling right. In parallel with jetting the carbs I need to look at the exhaust. Good gains can be had by changing the old fashioned exhaust manifold for a more modern design. I'd really like to have a go at building my own manifold….. finding/calculating the specification isn't hard, but building an exhaust that conforms to these specs, and fits in the relatively confined space under the 45° lent over engine, sounds challenging! Back to today, with the new parts fitted and no wheel bearing enthusiasm, I had no way of avoiding starting the bodywork…. I did manage to talk myself out of breaking out the filler as I decided there wasn't enough time left in the day to make any real progress But I did spend a while weighing up my options with the front indicators. Currently I've got the indicators what should live in the front bumper bodged on to the front valance. It's not pretty. The first option is to try and recess the current indicators so that only the lens sits proud of the valance, like so: Option 2 is to try and use an indicator off another car/motorbike, which will be slightly smaller & more elegant than the current unit. For example, here someone has mounted a Fulvia series1 indicator on their s2 in the same position it's fitted to the S1. Preferably Id like to stick with indicator below the lights. But I'm open to ideas!
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Last Edit: Dec 14, 2013 23:48:12 GMT by goldnrust
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Dec 15, 2013 16:11:30 GMT
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To be frank, both look really good to me!
I'm quite glad that it'll stay points & carb powered, I was absolutely sure you'd do a perfect job with EFI but part of the character of old cars is the way their engines work, all mechanical and finely tuned; electronics make things more immediately satisfying but perhaps less interesting on the long term (unless you go the turbo- or supercharger route, that is).
I'm not a purist though, mainly because all that matters is the fun that cars can give, but I've grown to love the quirks and overall logic of oldschool engine management.
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,880
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Dec 15, 2013 21:37:29 GMT
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I know what you mean about the character. I feel kinda more settled with the idea of keeping with the period correct parts if I can make it go fast enough When I was thinking Megasquirt, something was always at the back of my head saying 'is it a shame to dump the carbs and points'. In more annoying news, I was driving home about 20 mins ago, the rain started, I put on the wipers then…. awwww I guess thats just jumped to the top of the to do list to repair that then!
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Dec 15, 2013 22:12:16 GMT
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crikey, sod spending a grand on Megasquirt!! a DTA S450 is under £500 single wiper conversipon FTW
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