1965/67 Imp pick-up (removing O/S/R wing from half-Imp)

[foxy99]

Yip

I was doing the head on my Mondeo a while back and none of the buckets I had seemed to be good sizes so went to a scrap yard and got a set from another Mondeo and they were all rubbish sizes when I got them home and measured them.

iirc I got round this by dressing the top of some of the valves


box of buckets from Mondeo in a yard


sizes are etched underneath

[foxy99]

So after a lot of measuring and no clear understanding/analysis of the data I have now done what I planned to do originally and fitted the piston assy's and also the crank.

All I can really say is that everything was dismantled (rings, gudgeon-pins etc), cleaned and re-fitted and nothing broke.

I put the pistons back in using a ring-compressor thing but even then it was fiddly as the rings would still catch a fraction on the block and the tool couldn't be tightened any further. Got there in the end tho.

I also blew through thru the oilways in the crank and block with an airline. Was susrprised to see the drillings in the crank were sort of diagonal. I guess I thought they be a maze like in the block but then again that wouldn't be possible.

Anyway am confident everything is clear.

Once the pistons were in I dropped the crank in. Again everything was thoroughly cleaned (even under the bearing-shells) and nothing replaced. If STD main and big-end shells were available on Ebay I'd have bought some as I can see some scratches in mine but I'm thinking with clean oil this won't matter. It's not like the scrathes will get bigger.

I don't know what oil I've been using to lubricate the bores but all the journals have this Graphite assembly-paste on them.

Now that the crank is in and seems fine I don't think I'll take it back out.

Will need to correctly torque the fasteners and find new 'hockey-stick' seals for the main bearing-cap (flywheel end) but other than that I think I can continue with the rebuild


blowing thru oilways in crankshaft



rings removed from piston to clean grooves



all rings back on unbroken



some big-end shells are scratched



centre main shells show some damage



STD shells don't appear to be readily-available



ring-compressor used when installing pistons



pistons in. note marks on centre main shell




pistons seem to be tight fit in bores



Graphite assembly-paste used on journals


manually turning crank (crank view)



manually turning crank (piston view)

[foxy99]

So last time I worked on the Imp engine (aside from the crank stuff) I had a look at the oil-filter and some of the gaskets that would be going on next.

The oil-filter canister seemed to have an awful lot of springs and washers in it. I have no idea which are correct and if anything is missing but decided to start by getting a new filter. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of genuine Rootes parts now so I bought a pattern one which seemed to match the OEM number. After posting details of it on Imp facebook page most of the chat descended into the worth of the filter being measured by the seal for the nut being included. I only got one sealing-ring in the box so it must be useless

I looked at my nut-seal the other day and it seems very good. More worrying is that looking more closely at the parts list I seem to be missing a few washers. I don't have pics of all this just now but will get back to it. I also have a Sport oil-filter assy so mb check that for the other washers etc

I also tried, from my new 'no-name' gasket kit, the timing-cover gaskets. These things are very thin and didn't seem to fit over the studs well at all. The kit did however include a seal for the oil-way on the timing-cover face and the main crank seal. I put these in and decided to search further for the timing-cover seals.

On Ebay I found a period set and ordered it. Turns out it also has the oilway seal and another main seal. Good to have spares I guess. I haven't compared the gaskets yet ot tried them on the block. Will do so shortly.

I sort of expected the tiny o-ring that sits on the head-gasket face to be in my bottom-end kit but it would obviously come with the head-gasket set - which I haven't bought yet



bottom-end gasket set included this o-ring for oilway on timing-cover face



this one hopefully comes with head-sets




this modern oil-filter element is supposed to fit Imp



only 1 extra item in the box




period timing-cover gasket set bought


contents list



everything seems to be present



seal is probably age-hardened but will be interesting to cross-reference this number



will these decades-old gaskets fit better than ones in modern set?

[foxy99]

I can't really comment on all this stuff individually right now but basically I just spent £100 on bits n pieces.

I saw a guy (about 20 miles from me) advertising a hoard of Imp stuff, which I don't really need.

However I noticed he had some tins of shims, which I'm sure I'll need soon, and hose n stuff.

So. As I was working in that direction I arranged to go and look.

Was quite sad to hear the guy who actually owns it all has dementia and i didn't get to meet him, despite him being in the house.

I dealt with his brother who waited patiently while I went thru all the tubs etc.

Anyway I made £110 that day and gave him £100 for the stuff. Probably too much but i didn't want to be a chancer and it would cost more to collect it all individually and some stuff (like shims) you could wait forever on turning up.


37 badly stored shims



21 well stored shims



QH water pump body




Chrysler-era water pump



airbox



hoses



cowl and gaiter




air filters




oil filter



grouped



odd gaskets



head gaskets



sump gasket




dynamo & alternator rear brackets

[foxy99]

So I'm getting a bit sidetracked here.....

Before I started buying all these Imp bits I was offering-up gaskets. I've lost the thread completely of where I was with that and am now £250 deep in Imp bit that I don't really need. I did sell the alternator (rear) mounting-bracket for £20 and some gearbox 'baulking rings') for £7 each. One guy bought 4 straight after I listed them and I realised I had 5 so threw that in too. After Ebay have rinsed me I'll prob be £20 up with the rings and I did the bracket sale outside Ebay so I'm really only £210 out of pocket.

The 2nd trip for Imp bits didn't really produce anything I need apart from a Stromberg carb that was in the haul gave me the dashpot plunger thing and a float-bowl screw that were missing from mine. Also go what is probably a pretty rare bracket/clip that holds the oil-cooler hoses to the chassis-rail.

The other stuff isn't particularly relevant to this thread but there were some interesting bits that I had no idea what they were for other than 'Rootes'. Turned out to be a Stiletto binnacle with instruments and most of a Chamois dash (the wooden things and the metal backing bits) plus an unused 533 head and a Sport cam. All this stuff is on Ebay or marketplace with plenty interest but no bidders so far.

Also got some nice stainless side-trims for the Chamois models. They aren't the easiest things to photograph and the ones for rear-wings will be difficult to post (due to length) but they will definitely be rare and someone must need them


So going back to the gaskets....

In my 1st haul here were some odd gaskets and apparently the head gaskets are good ones. The manifold gasket fits fine (someone said the ones in current popular kit are a bad fit) but the odd sump gasket won't even go on. It must have shrunk. No big deal but am surprised at how tight it is.

All the shims I got in 1st haul have been cleaned in vinegar but still to measure them.


So that's kinda all for now



odd Stromberg 125CDs yielded a couple of spares



gearbox baulking rings sold for £7 each



shims cleaned in vinegar




unused 533 head



NOS hose from 1st haul identical to my original radiator hose




shrunken sump gasket



bought Stiletto binnacle thinking it was Super Minx or similar




same with Chamois dash parts



Chamois rear wing lower trim is over 1.2m long



Chamois front wing upper & lower trims

[foxy99]

So I'm still a bit side-tracked with the Imp haul but have actually broke even with the stuff sold and have obv' got some stuff I will actually use for free effectively.

I did something with one if those items this week. It had never really dawned on me that my car didn't have an air-cleaner or flame-trap when I got it. In the haul was a rusty, standard, air-cleaner so into the electrolysis tank it went and after the usual drying and wire-brushing I hit it with some Halfords zinc primer then some Ford Moondust Silver I just happened to have. I wanted to paint it gold as apparently they sometimes came in that colour (or blue, or silver) but figured it was better just to use what I had.

The lid is quite perforated so it may be replaced by another cheapo or i could fill the holes. I don't like wasting stuff so prob go for the later. Bottom-line is that it's clean and useable.

As for the flame-trap bits... I thought it would be impossible to find these. I had been told by 'experts' that the bracket hanging onto the lid of my cleaner was home-made but it turns out it is actually used to support a special clip which in turn holds a little pipe and then there's some rubber hose and another two of the clips to take the hose round to the filler-neck on the head. Anyway I got them from a helpful Imp spare
s-guy for just £20 (plus £3 P&P) and was well chuffed when they arrived as they looked almost new and were definitely pukka. I was interested to see that numbers stamped on the flame-trap are same format as those on the air-cleaner tub, The air-cleaner assy was made by AC so the flame-trap must have been too.

Naturally I'll want the equivalent bits for my Sport air-cleaner and I've not quite figured that arrangement out but I think it's simpler as the box is longer and therefore needs less bits attached to it to connect it to the filler-neck.

In other news I have ordered a bunch of Imp valves and springs which may or may not be Sport ones. It looks like I'll have my work cut out getting all the bits for my bare Sport head as there seems to be nothing available NOS and there are several differences with the bits for Sport and STD heads.

The valves have the part-numbers on them so I'll be examining them soon as they arrive



complete STD flame-trap assy (apart from rubber hoses) for £20



helpful note from seller




turns out (damaged) bracket on my air-cleaner is OEM part



numbers stamped on flame-trap



STD air-cleaner as found



air-cleaner tub in zinc primer



air-cleaner lid in zinc primer



electrolysis showed up these holes in lid


underside of lid is perforated too




tub has these numbers stamped on it 4 times. same format as flame-trap stamps






assy sprayed silver. lid needs some work or replacing

[foxy99]

So a little bit of a lucky-find, just to keep things moving along. Also a tiny bit of historical update. Oh and the usual mince about being constantly working so not getting time on the Imp etc (which is true).

So yeah. Saw a listing on Ebay for some valve-springs n stuff. The seller was by no means giving it the hard-sell. He wrote...

Hillman Imp Valves and Springs.

The history if these is unknown

The are double valve springs found on the more “sporty” engines

The Buy It Now was £25 (plus £5.35 P&P) and he accepted my offer of £21 so for £26.36 in total I took a chance on getting at least something to use for my, almost bare, Sport head.

On receipt of the parcel and some eye-squinting examination of the numbers on the valves stems followed by checking of the parts list it turns out I now have some Sport inlet valves - plus correct exhaust valves. These ar the same as normal Imps but could have been the ones from very early Imps which wouldn't have been any good.

I already have a set of Sport (double) springs but at least I can now compare them against these latest ones and if they are the same there's a good chance they are what they are supposed to be. There are 10 of the spring retainer things, 8 collets and 6 of the seat things. All handy to have I guess but I do know that there are lots of small differences with the valve parts depending on what set-up you have so still got a bit of referencing and searching to do.

The pics aren't great but you can just about make out the important end-part of the numbers 7100448 (Sport inlet valve) and 7100854



£26.36 all-in for this unknown bundle of Imp valve stuff



854 is good for the exhaust valves




7100448 for the Sport inlet valves


As far as the 'news' goes it's a weird one... I was in contact years and years ago with a guy who is a professor/Dr at the University of Warwick and is trying to write a history of the company Automotive Products of Leamington Spa. The guy who commissioned my car to be made in Rootes' workshop(s) - John T Panks - was a manging director of Automotive Products and that' what the connection is.

Anyway the guy is back in touch and has found the photographer for Automotive Products who apparently has a huge library of pics from the era so something might come up but the chances are slim I guess.

I also had the idea to go back to the source of the only early pic I have of the car.... it appeared on Impressions magazine decades ago and was sent in to them by a guy called Tony Pratley. It wasn't him who took the pic or was in the car but he worked for Rootes and the pic was given to him by the guy who took the picture. It's a very very slim chance I can glean something more but I found a guy on facebook called Tony Pratley and have messaged him. No reply yet but a lot of people don't realise they have a 'message request' waiting so just need to wait and se.

[ovimor]

Ahh.... IMPressions :-)

As a club member I got that. Used to be several A4 sheets [landscape] and stapled into a booklet.
I recall a quite 'technical' piece appearing, some guys ran an IMP up & down a road whilst using the 'smoke trail' method to ascertain high/low airflow pressure zones.
It was in response to that edition that I wrote in, describing my fitting the plastic MINI fan on my 998(reversing the radiator airflow).

OVIMOR

[foxy99]

Thanks ovimor

I actually dug-out lots of old copies of Impressions I have and, 30+ years on, I'm still struck by how it's only the 'tech' bits I liked. Each issue seemed to be packed with articles about meets and BBQs which i was never really interested in

Anyway a bit of duplication here....

I said recently that the Sport heads had 'all sorts of differences' in the valve components that I hadn't quite got it all 100% straight in my head. Well a bit of studying told me I actually have everything I need for the Sport head except for one part (well 8 of one part) and the Sport heads actually have less bits to gather than STD heads.

So I added to my long-running 'want ad' on here for the missing bits and it generated some useful replies - which is unusual in the Classifieds.

That lead me to try and break down in 'key' type visuals what the differences are to put on that thread so I'm basically just re-posting it here.


I'm familiar with item 160 710047 Cup - exhaust valve spring which sit between the (STD) exhaust-valve springs and the head - in place of the differently-shaped type (157) that go under the (STD) inlet-valve springs - but the Sport head doesn't have seals (on the inlet-valves) so presumably any cups used with the Sport springs would be the same for both inlet & exhaust.

The parts list does show 8 of item 164 7100452 Cup - valve spring but they have been drawn above the spring. This may be an error but the hole in the middle is larger than that on 160 (which would fit neatly round the valve-guide) and also the cup seems deeper



valve parts isolated on part list drawing



STD spring-cups. 4 of one and 4 of another



Sport spring-cups. 8 the same

[foxy99]

Well I think I've thrown the hat in on the special Sport cups. No-one has ever seen them (despite them also being detailed in my newly-acquired Imp-variants parts-list supplement) and a guy showed me pics of his assembled 107 head and it just has 8 of the normal cups under the (double) springs.

So I'll just get another 2 and add them to the ones in the earlier pic.

Anyway, things of much more interest to me, have developed regarding the history of the Imp. It would take too long to relate it all in chronological order so I'll try to summarise it while hopefully capturing some of the highs and lows....

10 years ago (yes 10) a guy contacted me who was a professor at Warwick Uni and tryin to write a book about Automotive Products Ltd (better known as AP). He saw my mention of John T Panks and is local to the Coventry area and said he would go to the village (Swalcliffe) and ask around as to what might have happened to the Panks's belongings (photo albums?) when they died as we were both of the impression that they had no family.

So we exchanged a few emails and as the years passed I heard no more from him.

Well last weekend I somehow found a picture of the Panks's gravestone! and it said Mr Panks was a father and grandfather. I messaged the Uni guy straight away and was amazed/pleased to get a response and within hours he's somehow found links to details of the Panks's two daughter's marriages (in 1972 & 1964). The had both seemingly married wealthy men of some 'background'.

So next thing I was shelling out on subscriptions to 2 ancestry websites and did get a few hits. Long story short is that one daughter is still alive and had a child. The other has passed away and apparently didn't have any children.

There is however a twist...

The link I got re the decd daughter's marriage led to contact with a guy in USA who (like me) has been driving himself nuts trying to trace info on a very rare car. This is a story in itself regarding a 'Jet' bubblecar produced by a Frenchman and made in USA but the twist is that a man from Texas contacted him years ago to say he was married to the grandaughter of the guy who made the Jet car. This was Prudence Panks's husband. So that means they must've had family unless there has been some big mix-up along the way.

Anyway the Uni guy really got me thinking as he lives local to the Rootes archive and he thinks there's no way the pick-up was made as a 'weekend job' and that management must've know about it and there would have been drawings done for the conversion. I must admit I have to agree. Way back when I was 18 and bought the car everyone before had written it off as home-made.

However when you get right down to the logistics of it this is impossible:

• Who, in the public, would have had access to an unregistered (1965) 'chassis' to work on till finishing the job in 1967?
• if it was home-made how was the 1st registered-keeper of it the wife of a Rootes Group managing-director?
• why would Mr Panks and his wife written letters to subsequent owners saying they (he) converted the vehicle?

Anyway that's by the by but it's not impossible that there were drawings made and I know there is a huge amount of material in the Rootes archive so perhaps the Uni guy (Mr Steve G) may uncover something.

He is also going to write the Mr Panks's surviving daughter for me (on headed paper from the Uni). I found an email address for her but I think his approach would be better.

So what have I done?

Well buoyed by the developments I went back on Facebook and posted a few things and got a few comments but the one that blew my mind was a guy who said his father was with Rootes for years and often got seconded to the Competition/Experimental Depts and has spoken about the pick-up before.

He is 94 now and he offered to put me in touch with him. I could hardly sleep last night thinking 'I need to jump on a train or bus to Coventry and meet this old chap before it's too late'

Well today i got a reply from the son saying

Hi Graham, spoke to my dad about you talking to him, he would prefer it if I acted as an intermediary, he is hard of hearing and gets embarrassed. Anyway I spoke to him about the Imp pick-up, it was made in the service department, to be used as a gofer for another dept, basically it was an Imp with the rear roof section cut off and seats removed, the panel shop then fabricated a cab bulkhead and box which was fitted into the available space, it retained the original engine bay and engine cover, he believed it was just before the Husky came out as this would have made a better basis to start from. He also mentioned the Asp sports car, I remember going to look at one of the fibreglass bodies that had been made which was to be bonded to an imp floor pan, last I heard the original steel prototype was in the Bahama’s, it looked like the lotus elan, ithe management said it wouldn’t sell!!, another project was a small off-roader designed in Denmark which was fitter with imp running gear which never went any further, sorry rambling on a bit, he has loads of memories of his time with Rootes, I can always ask.

It's very interesting but my heart sank a bit as this sounds more like a runaround for the staff rather than the bespoke little gift for the Director's wife. Anyway I sent the guy another couple of pics and suggested he ask his dad if he remembers the colour. If it was pale green we may be on to something. From what he says about the construction it does sound correct so am thinking perhaps Mr Panks came across the already-converted vehicle and took it on as his project adding the Sports engine, wooden dash etc. Who knows...

Anyway I shall report back as things develop



supplementary part list



the weird gang



isolated drawing of Sport intake etc



7100452 must have existed



gravestone of my Imp's 1st owners



high-society wedding for one of the Panks girls. Sara still living

[foxy99]

Very small update, and I cba really going into it in detail but

I posted a letter off the other day to the lady in the pic above. She'll be in her 80s now and lives in (probably) a big posh house in Greenport NY (USA).

I basically just introduced myself, told her I have her Mum's old car, that I am in touch with a 'Dr' from University of Coventry who wants to write a book about her Father & Automotive Products Ltd (AP) and that it would be beyond amazing if she has any old pics of the Imp.

I was also at a cinema this week ('Living' starring Bill Nighy) which, I think, is built on the old Linwood site and, on the way home, took a drive past Cathcart Crescent & Weaver Terrace - where I bought the car in 1988.

I didn't knock on any doors but will do so once I have something to show - like the engine running.

It's all quite frustrating making no progress and hitting dead-ends constantly but this is the end of the line as far as research is concerned.

Been doing a lot of thinking about the project trips to the cinema were food for thought....

I was inspired by The Lost King (about woman finding body of Richard III) and a book I've read, The Dig, (about a couple of people finding a buried ship from the Dark Ages) to pick up the trail again regarding the history of the Imp but I don't see what more I can do now. I could visit the Rootes Archive and see if they have any drawings of it unseen for 50+ years but that would probably be a fruitless but interesting day out. So it seems to me finding the body of dead Kings is easier than finding a pic of my car and I'm done with it now.

The Bill Nighy film was a wake-up call really. It was about a guy hearing he only had a short time left and he had a last go at getting things done. I'm in early 50s now and will be in my 70s a lot quicker than you'd imagine so I've realised there is no real point keeping the Imp on ice to make it a perfect 'life's work' project as I haven't got that much time to rebuild it and enjoy it so I'm just going to drag it out and start doing the body repairs.

For example the guy I rent the barn off is 76 now and health is really bad. Every year we think it's going to be his last. I started renting the barn nearly 17 years ago when he was only about 8 years older than I am now and we have both achieved basically ef all in that time

I can weld, there are loads of brilliant panels available for them now and I can spray-paint. It's time to get my finger out

[foxy99]

Well. Would you believe it....?

I got a reply from Sara Garretson - daughter of the guy who had my car made.

I'll go into it in more detail later but basically she doesn't have any pics of my Imp but has a 10-year younger sister who was still in the family home at the time the Imp was converted, and that sister has a son still in UK who is an avid auto buff and he has many of the family memorabilia.

She has forwarded a copy of my 'package' to both of them.

The most interesting thing about her reply is that she talks about the pick-up being designed and delivered to her parents' home.

I'm very grateful to her for taking the time to reply. You have to remember she was a young woman recently married and living in USA when the Imp was converted so this wouldn't be something she was very aware of.

[foxy99]

Ok, so I've had no reply from Prudence or her son which I'm a bit surprised at and a bit not. You go thru thoughts like 'mb the email from the sister went into a Junk folder' or 'mb they are too busy to reply - but working on it right now' or 'mb they just can't be bothered'

But whatever the case I feel the ball is in my court now and if I can make some serious progress (quickly) then email them details about that we could get a dialogue going.

So I'm paid off my mortgage and am working nearly every day just now and every penny is going towards getting my debt to NIL (credit card was nearly 3K and I owe my Mum £700) so that come Aprilish time I can basically stop working altogether and just live off credit card. They have increased my limit to £6K. Probably because I'm throwing so much money at it lol.

I've been clearing a dedicated space in the barn for the 'Imp-Clinic' and decide the first body-repair to tackle should be the bonnet that was on the car when I got it. It wasn't the original bonnet (late type with no letters on front) and I did get one of those a few years later but the wrong-un has been retained.


Like most (all ?) Imps the front is badly corroded and this isn't surprising as there is zero paint in the double-skinned area up front.

Many years ago I separated the strengthening-panel from the actual bonnet and i dug both out the other night. I have one corner of the bonnet in electrolysis to clean off all the surface rust prior to cutting out any rot and starting the welding. Will do the same with the strengthening thing.

PS sorry about the poor pictures. They were taken under artificial light with a not so good camera but you get the idea



incorrect bonnet was on car when bought




this part of bonnet obviously got no paint from factory





strengthening panel separated from skin



bonnet-catch area



hidden side of bonnet-catch area



longer view



bonnet being cleaned by electrolysis


with more electrolyte could get half of bonnet done

[foxy99]

So after a day in the tub neither the bonnet of the strengthening-panel seemed to be losing as much rust as I expected.

I've not used the tub for ages and the water is pretty dirty so ,b it's lost its 'strength'.

So I bought more Soda crystals yesterday and topped up the water and added some of the bag to the solution.

Popped the panel back in and switched on and straight away could see more action. The solution was fizzing away

I'm going back today and expect to see it clean enough to start repairs and I'll put the bonnet back in to see if that can be cleaned too.

Small steps but if you can do it on one panel you can do it on the whole thing



bonnet corner didn't clean up at all really on 1st immersion



painted side of strengthening-panel looking decent




hidden side of side of strengthening-panel not much better




more fizz required

[homersimpson]

I've been using citric acid (bought from ebay in bulk as its used to make bath bombs), I've found that it works really well especially if the water is warm but even if its cold you can just leave it for a few days and it gets the job done.

[igor]

This one is currently for sale here in New Zealand.
www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/other/other/listing/3959322330

[foxy99]

That's a wee beauty igor


Think I've seen it before but had no idea it was on the market.

If I was a Millionaire I think I'd buy it and make it a replica of mine (losing the big platform on the back)

[foxy99]

homersimpson

I used Deox-C before (warm) and it was great - but expensive and went black quickly (losing its power)

I had a suspicion it was citric acid so may give it a go using just that

[homersimpson]

This is the citric acid I've been buying, I did almost all the bits I needed to on my MK2 jag with one 5kg pack and bought another one just to finish the wheels and i've got loads left for the next project.

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131447087703

Some of the bits i've been doing are on my Econojag thread forum.retro-rides.org/thread/213238/econo-jag-mk2-1967-auto?page=22

[MiataMark]

I've used citric acid, found it more effective than electrolysis.