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After owning my Metro Turbo for 11 years, I'm seriously considering of 'upgrading' to something else, rather than pump more cash into it.
All the stuff I like is mega money, but then looking at the ads, I could have a late, tidyish 1990s 996 Porsche 996 for the price of an Escort RS Turbo... Obviously, the Porsche isn't going to be cheap to maintain, but anybody have any experience of them. Do seem a bargain at the moment as pretty much the least desirable '911'.
Thanks
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thebaron
Europe
Over the river, heading out of town
Posts: 1,657
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BT
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,772
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Jun 22, 2016 12:09:45 GMT
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There was a thread on here recently about them, they've gone up in price over the last 12 months.
They can be incredibly problematic. RMS and IMS failure, IMS failure can be terminal but can be remedied. They also suffer with bore score and also suffer with Mis shaped bores. All of which car result in a engine rebuild which can come in at around 10k. Porsche do however still sell complete 3.6 bottom ends (996.2) for around £4000 if I remember correctly.
Your best bet is 911UK forum, an incredibly helpful bunch of guys with a lot of resources
I will one day own one.
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Jun 22, 2016 12:23:25 GMT
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rr69h
Part of things
Posts: 313
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Jun 23, 2016 16:03:17 GMT
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Hi there, I'm the author of that readers' rides thread mentioned above. Although my journey with the 996 has just started I feel I can provide a few of my own learnings. 1. Maintenance can't exactly be called cheap, but it's not outrageously expensive. Parts prices are available from the Porsche website so it's easy to make up your own mind. 2. The general talk is that the engines tend to grenade. But: the problems mentioned above are the sum of problems specific to the 3.4 and those specific to the 3.6. So the good news is that you have to worry only about half of the issues mentioned. The bad news is that once an engine goes it's rarely a cheap fix. As mentioned 911UK is the first choice of getting info, especially their survey about blown engines across the range is quite insightful. I actually prefer 911UK over all of the German boards... and this is coming from a German by the way. 3. Now about being scared: I sure was, too when I started reading up on those cars. And I freely admit that to some extent I still am. You can minimize the risk of having to perform expensive repairs by a thorough PPI, but as it is with all old cars: you're never 100% sure nothing will happen. If you go for one with a recently rebuilt engine the gearbox might go or your wheels might get stolen. But there's a chance, too that actually nothing will go wrong at all. My point is: yes, this car is about taking chances. But you can minimize your risks by... 4. ...choosing the right car for you. This will definetely take some time. I too viewed a "safe" car with a rebuilt engine by one of the best guys to do it in Germany. It was the wrong colour, the wrong spec, but the overall condition was fair at first glance. But it just didn't speak to me. Instead I chose one that makes me happy. Its mileage is above the typical failing-point of the IMS bearing and so far has no bore score or oval cylinders. Checking these factors is what I've done to minimize the risk I am willing to take. 5. These cars are a delight to drive. The engine is plenty characterful, the handling is sublime. The shape has aged very well so be prepared for many questions on how on earth you can afford a 5 year old 911. And be prepared to have a smile on your face as you drive it. And make passengers giggle when the road is clear and you're giving it the beans!
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"Racing drivers never carry cash"
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awoo
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,506
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Jun 23, 2016 21:14:48 GMT
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Got very close to buying a 996 C4S lately but just can't do it. It would be £20k and possible to have two catastrophically dire engine problems whilst using £1000 worth of tyres etc.
I would have to park it on the road too.
Time isn't right for me. But if you go in with your eyes open and get a bargain then why not? I can't think of a better car in the price range it's just the bore score and ims issue.
Although you can do things to prevent it to an extent.
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MonzaPhil
Posted a lot
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought
Posts: 2,456
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Jun 23, 2016 22:11:37 GMT
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Prices are going up. Really nice car to live with. I mean a really practical, docile around town and proper fast when you want. Not at all bad on fuel. Still feel really special too, and feel well put together. You shouldn't be sat in it wondering what's going to break or drop off like some other high performance or exotic cars. Lefties are a bit cheaper too...
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This is now a clicky linky!
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tdk
Part of things
Posts: 958
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Jun 24, 2016 14:08:33 GMT
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Some goods points made. I'll echo what I've said on 996s before; The Porsche specialist I use really hates them, all the engine scoring worries mentioned above (and when you've done 'em, they'll probably need doing again some years later, he says), IMS, RMS, radiators etc etc.. I came close but ended up in a 968. Different animal altogether, but I don't regret my choice at all.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Jun 24, 2016 15:09:04 GMT
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BT
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,772
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Jun 24, 2016 16:58:40 GMT
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I do love the 996 despite their problems and I think they're possibly the most affordable way into 911 ownership, the headlights and the way they don't have the iconic round headlight of the normal 911 is a bit sucky, but I'd still own one.
Reading on 911uk, I think that the percentages they've taken in relation to IMS and bore score is probably a little high, I mean a lot of people sign up to these forums to get advice on problems they've got.
That said I knew a chap who bought a 997 3.8 which I thought were outside of the problem area and he suffered bore score, luckily for him the car was still under a used warranty and he got his £20,000 back, but it's still a risk to take.
Have a read up on the IMS failure, I did when I nearly bought one last year and it made me feel a bit better about it. The caymans suffer with it as do the 968 as far as I am aware.
Personally, for an affordable Porsche I am incredibly tempted by a 968 in the 3.2s variety. Plus I could probably stomach a hearty bill a lot more when I've not paid out 10k/15k.
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Jun 24, 2016 18:05:14 GMT
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I do love the 996 despite their problems and I think they're possibly the most affordable way into 911 ownership, the headlights and the way they don't have the iconic round headlight of the normal 911 is a bit sucky, but I'd still own one. Reading on 911uk, I think that the percentages they've taken in relation to IMS and bore score is probably a little high, I mean a lot of people sign up to these forums to get advice on problems they've got. That said I knew a chap who bought a 997 3.8 which I thought were outside of the problem area and he suffered bore score, luckily for him the car was still under a used warranty and he got his £20,000 back, but it's still a risk to take. Have a read up on the IMS failure, I did when I nearly bought one last year and it made me feel a bit better about it. The caymans suffer with it as do the 968 as far as I am aware. Personally, for an affordable Porsche I am incredibly tempted by a 968 in the 3.2s variety. Plus I could probably stomach a hearty bill a lot more when I've not paid out 10k/15k. 968 is front engined, effectively a 944 S3. I think you mean 986 which is the first of the Boxsters. I must admit mine made me nervous, not just IMS but also expensive Tip box as well. A rebuild for the box is £2400. Mine over the near 4 years & 11K miles cost me £1.13 pence per mile over that time. Sensors & ancillaries seem to be fragile as well. Luckily as a TIPEC member I got 10% off spares. Servicing on a 986 or 996 is Classic Porsche done at a discounted rate so a minor is £200 & a major was around £375. Labour was around £60 + VAT & I supplied my own oil. The reason being is that some research in the USA points towards too thin oil being an issue in IMS & bore scoring. The biggest repairers of these engines in the UK will only warrant them if run on Millers 10W/60 so this seems to be a common thought.
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BT
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,772
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Jun 24, 2016 18:29:29 GMT
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I do love the 996 despite their problems and I think they're possibly the most affordable way into 911 ownership, the headlights and the way they don't have the iconic round headlight of the normal 911 is a bit sucky, but I'd still own one. Reading on 911uk, I think that the percentages they've taken in relation to IMS and bore score is probably a little high, I mean a lot of people sign up to these forums to get advice on problems they've got. That said I knew a chap who bought a 997 3.8 which I thought were outside of the problem area and he suffered bore score, luckily for him the car was still under a used warranty and he got his £20,000 back, but it's still a risk to take. Have a read up on the IMS failure, I did when I nearly bought one last year and it made me feel a bit better about it. The caymans suffer with it as do the 968 as far as I am aware. Personally, for an affordable Porsche I am incredibly tempted by a 968 in the 3.2s variety. Plus I could probably stomach a hearty bill a lot more when I've not paid out 10k/15k. 968 is front engined, effectively a 944 S3. I think you mean 986 which is the first of the Boxsters. I must admit mine made me nervous, not just IMS but also expensive Tip box as well. A rebuild for the box is £2400. Mine over the near 4 years & 11K miles cost me £1.13 pence per mile over that time. Sensors & ancillaries seem to be fragile as well. Luckily as a TIPEC member I got 10% off spares. Servicing on a 986 or 996 is Classic Porsche done at a discounted rate so a minor is £200 & a major was around £375. Labour was around £60 + VAT & I supplied my own oil. The reason being is that some research in the USA points towards too thin oil being an issue in IMS & bore scoring. The biggest repairers of these engines in the UK will only warrant them if run on Millers 10W/60 so this seems to be a common thought. You are totally right. I had the correct numbers just in the wrong order. Is it Hartec that do a warranty service plan thing? I remember looking into it when I was tempted by the 996.
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Jun 24, 2016 19:52:56 GMT
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Yes Hartec in Bolton
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Porsche 996?madmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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When I had one, I kept seeing the phrase, " If you can only just afford it, you can't afford it" on 911UK and it is very apt. My 996 Carrera 2 S (S just meant tiptronic) cost £70K new but £9.5k to me a few years ago. BUT it still has the running costs of a £70K super car. Depending on how much you can do yourself, I'd say set aside £5-£7K after you've bought it. Sadly, a few friends, seeing a 996 on the drive (and not understanding how cheap it was), went a bit funny on me. Build quality isn't great, quite a bit of flimsy plastic such as the air vents, seats are a lot less comfortable than the later 997s and 991s but you can always change to later seats and ignore the plastic. I don't mean to be so negative, they are an awesome car. To insure against IMS failure, you can get on the Hartech plan or have a better ceramic IMS bearing fitted. Or to be totally out there, replace the crappy 996 engine with an LS3 if it breaks. Eg www.renegadehybrids.com/I came very close to doing this but it's only for the 6 speed manuals. Plus life circumstances changed so 4 door saloons and big boots became more useful to me. Proper Porsche servicing has some massively expensive mileage points, £96K I think is a particularly expensive one. So lots of cars approaching this mileage don't get the attention they need and are sold on with some big bills imminent. In summary, for me it was a lot more pleasant to look at than to drive. I actually liked the different front lights.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,256
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Porsche 996?ChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Some goods points made. I'll echo what I've said on 996s before; The Porsche specialist I use really hates them, all the engine scoring worries mentioned above (and when you've done 'em, they'll probably need doing again some years later, he says), IMS, RMS, radiators etc etc.. I came close but ended up in a 968. Different animal altogether, but I don't regret my choice at all. Does the specialist begin with E? . A specialist I know of doesn't mind them too much. He reckons the RMS seal leaking is a common fault, but the IMS is not as common as people would have you believe. IIRC he actually prefers to drive of them to the earlier aircooled stuff, which some people there never got what the fuss was about, especially the much fabled 993. Like you, I debated buying on but the risk factors are high. Saying that, they are hardly low on my new purchase! I do love the 996 despite their problems and I think they're possibly the most affordable way into 911 ownership, the headlights and the way they don't have the iconic round headlight of the normal 911 is a bit sucky, but I'd still own one. Reading on 911uk, I think that the percentages they've taken in relation to IMS and bore score is probably a little high, I mean a lot of people sign up to these forums to get advice on problems they've got. That said I knew a chap who bought a 997 3.8 which I thought were outside of the problem area and he suffered bore score, luckily for him the car was still under a used warranty and he got his £20,000 back, but it's still a risk to take. Have a read up on the IMS failure, I did when I nearly bought one last year and it made me feel a bit better about it. The caymans suffer with it as do the 968 as far as I am aware. Personally, for an affordable Porsche I am incredibly tempted by a 968 in the 3.2s variety. Plus I could probably stomach a hearty bill a lot more when I've not paid out 10k/15k. Forums do have a habit of making some problems look like gospel ; I.e, be very afraid! I do love the 996 despite their problems and I think they're possibly the most affordable way into 911 ownership, the headlights and the way they don't have the iconic round headlight of the normal 911 is a bit sucky, but I'd still own one. Reading on 911uk, I think that the percentages they've taken in relation to IMS and bore score is probably a little high, I mean a lot of people sign up to these forums to get advice on problems they've got. That said I knew a chap who bought a 997 3.8 which I thought were outside of the problem area and he suffered bore score, luckily for him the car was still under a used warranty and he got his £20,000 back, but it's still a risk to take. Have a read up on the IMS failure, I did when I nearly bought one last year and it made me feel a bit better about it. The caymans suffer with it as do the 968 as far as I am aware. Personally, for an affordable Porsche I am incredibly tempted by a 968 in the 3.2s variety. Plus I could probably stomach a hearty bill a lot more when I've not paid out 10k/15k. 968 is front engined, effectively a 944 S3. I think you mean 986 which is the first of the Boxsters. I must admit mine made me nervous, not just IMS but also expensive Tip box as well. A rebuild for the box is £2400. Mine over the near 4 years & 11K miles cost me £1.13 pence per mile over that time. Sensors & ancillaries seem to be fragile as well. Luckily as a TIPEC member I got 10% off spares. Servicing on a 986 or 996 is Classic Porsche done at a discounted rate so a minor is £200 & a major was around £375. Labour was around £60 + VAT & I supplied my own oil. The reason being is that some research in the USA points towards too thin oil being an issue in IMS & bore scoring. The biggest repairers of these engines in the UK will only warrant them if run on Millers 10W/60 so this seems to be a common thought. A bloke I know on TIPEC was saying that his 986S cost around the same per mile to maintain, compared to 40p a mile over his 944! Regarding the oil, do people recommend 10W60 for these now? Opie would recommend a 5W40 and seem to think 10W60 is the work of the devil for road cars unless specified by the manufacturer. I guess such advice probably also causese problems. When I had one, I kept seeing the phrase, " If you can only just afford it, you can't afford it" on 911UK and it is very apt. My 996 Carrera 2 S (S just meant tiptronic) cost £70K new but £9.5k to me a few years ago. BUT it still has the running costs of a £70K super car. Depending on how much you can do yourself, I'd say set aside £5-£7K after you've bought it. Sadly, a few friends, seeing a 996 on the drive (and not understanding how cheap it was), went a bit funny on me. Build quality isn't great, quite a bit of flimsy plastic such as the air vents, seats are a lot less comfortable than the later 997s and 991s but you can always change to later seats and ignore the plastic. I don't mean to be so negative, they are an awesome car. To insure against IMS failure, you can get on the Hartech plan or have a better ceramic IMS bearing fitted. Or to be totally out there, replace the crappy 996 engine with an LS3 if it breaks. Eg www.renegadehybrids.com/I came very close to doing this but it's only for the 6 speed manuals. Plus life circumstances changed so 4 door saloons and big boots became more useful to me. Proper Porsche servicing has some massively expensive mileage points, £96K I think is a particularly expensive one. So lots of cars approaching this mileage don't get the attention they need and are sold on with some big bills imminent. In summary, for me it was a lot more pleasant to look at than to drive. I actually liked the different front lights. IMO, the first line of your sentence at the start is apt. Alot of cars this age do have a habit of having a few more jobs than anticipated and with the performance and badge it can catch you out. Even my M3 has cost me around £300 in two months (viscous coupling (the cheap one before was wrong; it was noisy), exhaust mounts, ARB drop links and HID bulbs (one was shot, but I think it's actually the ignitor that has gone) and I still have other things to attend including an Inspection (£££ however I look at it, even if I do it myself), and the front end respray (front wings are rusting slightly like most M3s and I figure I may as well repaint the front end since the bonnet has alot of touch up paint, which will in turn show up the bumper). If you don't mind me asking how much did you spend on running it and roughly what jobs were done?
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Last Edit: Jul 3, 2016 23:30:00 GMT by ChasR
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Thank you, all. Sadly I think it's a 'no' after listening to all the advice. Just couldn't deal with the upkeep and the worry of it all, however tempting.
I have seen a nice early Boxster though, and I do like a 944...
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.... hmm this is swaying me more towards a Maserati 3200 ... that may be because I'm a glutton for punishment though.
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I was going to buy one last year. Had a test drive in a vert and it just felt like a normal car dare i say a bit boring. Althrough i do still like the coupes with the gt3 kit but there going up in value fast around 3k in the past year. I then bought a chimaera 450 that was some car.
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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.... hmm this is swaying me more towards a Maserati 3200 ... that may be because I'm a glutton for punishment though. I'm delusional but yeah you should. The interwebz are full of knowledge about them, and their engine is less problematic than that of the 996 I'd love to hear of a sorted 3200, what with better suspension and everything...
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madmog
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,160
Club RR Member Number: 46
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Porsche 996?madmog
@madmog
Club Retro Rides Member 46
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If you don't mind me asking how much did you spend on running it and roughly what jobs were done? If you PM me your e-mail address I can send you a PDF of the comprehensive invoice of stuff I had done almost immediately after getting the car it makes more sense than below. Short version, attempting to cut and paste off the PDF, work done by Autofarm: 96k mile service Replace IMS bearing with LN Engineering upgrade Brake fluid change Alrbag check Replace idler and tensioning rollers Attend to suspension p u l l Replace OSF drop link Replace front ARB bushes Replace rear toe arms Replace seized adjustment bolts Replace OSR control arm 4 wheel alignment Replace corroded brake pipes Attend to oil_ Ieaks Replace front disks Replace coolant cap Replace oxygen sensors Replace sump pan with latest version Replace gear selector cable Replace both fan resistors Replace bonnet badge seal £8600 The 96K service is expensive, the IMS upgrade is about £1800 (engine out), the rest lots and lots of service items, sensor, brake pipe corrosion etc. For the few miles I did, perhaps I could have just changed the oil and hoped for the best. I think they said the IMS was starting to fail when they removed it. In theory for the money I spent on a C2 and the overdue work I could have bought a 996 turbo but then that could have given me an even bigger bill. for the next 2 years it needed nothing but an oil change, so averaging out, £4-£5K per year doing everything that needed doing and changing tyres and brakes a bit sooner than absolutely necessary. On the other hand, when you get this close, it'll suck you in
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