strongcomputer
Part of things
curse word off keyboard warriors. Whole forum I guess. Awaiting ban. Please. Do it. All forums are wibblepoo.
Posts: 52
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Apr 27, 2021 14:08:41 GMT
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It is interesting that you "would not be so bold to speculate with so little information" but you have no problem speculating that the car is a Daimler, composite, separate chassis, not an Alpine or is possibly a 50's based Ford Special based on absolutely zero factual information as far as I can see. Welcome your input though.
Thought long and hard about replying and have decided not to reply to similar comments. Why? Because if someone has made up their mind after reading everything I have posted, it is not a good use of my time to try and convince them otherwise and repeat previously posted information. Just ends up unpleasant and as per previous, it is just a car picture.
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,845
Club RR Member Number: 39
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Mystery Car - PistonheadsDarkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Apr 27, 2021 16:34:38 GMT
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There is a world of difference between your statements that is without doubt an Alpine and my comments that it could be many other things - Its a very different argument and trying to twist the perspective is a pity. Unlike you I am not trying to prove it’s anything specific. I am stating that there is nothing concrete to tie it to an Alpine as you seem to think and when called up on it it’s a shame that your responses are just vague and defensive. If you truly believed in your statements you would be welcoming counter opinions in order to shoot them down with hard facts and irrefutable proof.
Only asked for one part.
Do not get down about all the wasted effort - you may yet be proven right.
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Last Edit: Apr 27, 2021 16:36:54 GMT by Darkspeed
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stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,926
Club RR Member Number: 174
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Mystery Car - Pistonheadsstealthstylz
@stealthstylz
Club Retro Rides Member 174
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Apr 27, 2021 17:39:59 GMT
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Surely the easiest way to narrow it down would be to work out the wheelbase then see what else from that period comes close.
On the most recent suggestions - a Alpine is 86" wheelbase and a Daimler Dart 92" wheelbase for instance. A side valve pop is 90" wheelbase. All plenty far apart to discount easily.
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c1jake
Part of things
Posts: 229
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Apr 27, 2021 19:37:31 GMT
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It's got to be a real car, just so extremely niche during and after it's conception that it's so undocumented. The world was a very different place and while 1 off's and coachbuilt/fibreglass/etc cars were common, some must have stayed off the radar.
There's far too many random elements in it (people in front of it etc) for it to be faked, and given the age of it it would have been extremely difficult to fake at the time. And, fake or not, someone made that car look that way. Also the 'touched up' bits around the car feature elsewhere in the photo, it's probably a camera effect or post processing effect. There's probably a lot of reasonable explanations for every question anyone has but nobody yet knows for sure.
While it is a wild goose chase strongcomputer's work is worth it because elements of it will be mostly proven or disproven and ultimately the mystery itself hopefully solved. I'm still recreating the scene in PS to recreate the photo without any obstructions but without knowing what the obstructions are blocking I can only guess what it looks like.
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instagram.com/heapojunk
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c1jake
Part of things
Posts: 229
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Apr 27, 2021 19:46:04 GMT
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Also headlights are wrong angle and lots of other obvious differences but the mystery car front end is akin to the Panhard and SP250 (obviously) Edit: Looks like someone beat me to it ages ago on editing it without the subjects..
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Last Edit: Apr 27, 2021 19:47:38 GMT by c1jake
instagram.com/heapojunk
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Mystery Car - Pistonheadsfr€$h&m1nt¥
@freshandminty
Club Retro Rides Member 99
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It's got to be a real car, just so extremely niche during and after it's conception that it's so undocumented. The world was a very different place and while 1 off's and coachbuilt/fibreglass/etc cars were common, some must have stayed off the radar. I think this is the biggest problem, a lot of people want to say it’s a blahdeblah blah coupe from 196x and draw a line under it but I think it’s such a unique model - whether it’s a complete one off custom build or based on something else - that unless someone happens to know the builder the question will never be definitively answered. That photo without the people in has made me realise that it has to have gull doors down to the wraparound windscreen. It reminds me of a much smaller version of the 1955 Lincoln futura concept car that the George Barris batmobile was based on, obviously not one but it just shows the kind of designs and concepts that were bouncing around in peoples heads in the late 50s / early 60s to think I’m going to take the chassis of an X and build a coupe shell around it.
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Apr 28, 2021 11:44:43 GMT
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Those wheels look like a rarther low profile for 1960's I love the work thats been put in to this. Dan
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Duggy
Part of things
Posts: 129
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Apr 28, 2021 14:11:27 GMT
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Quite the opposite. Someone is trying to have the last word, when there is nothing to base it on. It remains a mystery at this moment in time. Am with bmcnut in that he/she says "I'm more interested in the other mysteries attached to this photo at the moment." Completely agree. The car thing has been done to death. I say Alpine and have come up with extensive reasons why. There are other ideas including it is a complete mystery. So if the clue is in the photograph, which I believe, the answer is therefore within the acknowledgments at the end of the Dunbar book. They are below. There are about 100 photo sources. Possibly an email and/or Word template and contact every source possible within the list? As per Marko comment I think this picture exists. The picture will have a vehicle within it. Virtually guaranteed as per people walking around an object. But this gets better, although it creates a dilemma. If a picture is found, and I think someone doing some decent research stands a good chance, and it does not contain an Alpine, my photographic research was based on the buildings surrounding the car to obtain the lens and position of camera. The car was never considered. However, am stating here and now that to get the Alpine in the right position was not contrived. It worked as you would expect for that camera position and lens. So if the picture does not contain an Alpine, I am left defending an exact camera position, lens, car and car detail. In theory can be done, but what are the chances of it all being worked out elsewhere? Slim. Height, distance, lens etc and so on including scale would need to have been worked through. Therefore, any picture found will be relying on my work to prove I am wrong. For my part, have put a lot of time into this and am now at a situation in my life where time is limited due to business. Have not contacted any of the sources re picture and will not be doing so. This is an opportunity, or poison chalice, for someone. Hope the picture is found. Why? Because have put forward a solid case and if it is wrong I will have learnt something and the mystery is solved or closer to being solved. Will be very happy, as want to solve the mystery more than any other motivation. Edited to make more impersonal 21.15 260421 First time poster on this thread but a long term follower of the thread on Pistonheads. I and a few others did a little research into the sources of the photos back in early 2018/19. Looking through the list the one that stood out for me, apart from the author and his son who of course may well have taken the original picture, is Fox Photos Ltd. According to the National Library of New Zealand, Fox Photos were an "English press photographic agency based in London. Originally founded by Mr Fox and Mr Salmon, it became a limited company (Fox Photos Limited) 1 January 1935 with premises at 6 Tudor Street, Fleet Street, London EC4. Circa 1970s or 1980s, a company photographer George Freston took over the business. By this time the office was at 69/71 Farringdon Road, London, EC1, with a laboratory at Scoresby Street, and offices in Manchester and Glasgow. The company ceased trading by 1999. Freston died in 2006.
The photograph library was passed to Hulton Archive, and then to Getty Images. Fox Photos Ltd also had a joint enterprise with Home Movies & Home Talkies Magazine to produce a monthly film newsreel circa 1933 to 1934. - [Source: natlib.govt.nz/records/22496499]At the time I also found this obituary of Terry Chambers, a longstanding photographer from the firm (dated 12.11.2013) from Photo Archive News. photoarchivenews.com/news/terry-chambers-photographer-and-co-owner-of-fox-photos-dies-aged-70/Bearing in mind that most of the sources quoted in the book are either from far and wide or bus and tram specialists it's possible that Fox, being based just a few miles away across London, were commissioned to take this shot, or it was one taken from their existing catalogue, which looks to have ended up being passed to Getty via Hulton. Again, this could be a total red herring or it could be something, I just thought I'd share it anyway. p.s. I also reached out to Gavin A Booth but no cigar. He responded to my email thus: "Hello,
Your enquiry has reached me, but sadly I can’t help you. My contributions were mainly Scottish photos.
I hope you find your answer, but after more than 50 years that may prove difficult. My uneducated guess is that the car is a TVR Coupe, but I’m a bus person, so what do I know?
Regards"
One last thing, I haven't had a chance to go through the Hulton Archive on Getty in its entirety I'm afraid as there's over 1.25 million photos. If anyone's not busy, please feel free! www.gettyimages.co.uk/collections/hulton-archive
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Last Edit: Apr 28, 2021 14:29:28 GMT by Duggy
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Mystery Car - Pistonheadsfr€$h&m1nt¥
@freshandminty
Club Retro Rides Member 99
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Apr 28, 2021 14:49:46 GMT
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p.s. I also reached out to Gavin A Booth but no cigar. He responded to my email thus: "Hello,
Your enquiry has reached me, but sadly I can’t help you. My contributions were mainly Scottish photos.
I hope you find your answer, but after more than 50 years that may prove difficult. My uneducated guess is that the car is a TVR Coupe, but I’m a bus person, so what do I know?
Regards"
Mk1 TVR Grantura is another close but no cigar...
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Oooh is this your company strongcomputer? worthy of a thread on its own, amazing stuff. Working with Thornley Kelham is pretty special!
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Last Edit: Apr 29, 2021 8:14:32 GMT by HoTWire
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awoo
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,506
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ok, all the buses and the van have had a bit of a chop. it not perfect but I didn't have lots of time. I've got a bigger version suitable for print, this is best for just web/desktops etc
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Last Edit: Apr 29, 2021 9:06:43 GMT by awoo
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IMHO i think its a one off special built out of proprietory parts by a very talented person. I have a funny feeling ive seen it in an old period mag such as Hot Car or CCC
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Apr 29, 2021 10:00:41 GMT
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IMHO i think its a one off special built out of proprietory parts by a very talented person. I have a funny feeling ive seen it in an old period mag such as Hot Car or CCC Hi, I agree, the front screen looks like one from a Vauxhall 'F' type Victor. Lot's of people were experimenting with fibreglass at that time. Colin
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Apr 29, 2021 10:03:32 GMT
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Those wheels look like a rarther low profile for 1960's I love the work thats been put in to this. Dan I think the hubcaps contribute to giving a false impression of wheel size, plus if you look at the front wheel you can clearly see the tyre has quite a large sidewall that's hidden in the shadow.
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strongcomputer
Part of things
curse word off keyboard warriors. Whole forum I guess. Awaiting ban. Please. Do it. All forums are wibblepoo.
Posts: 52
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Apr 29, 2021 10:35:26 GMT
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Yep. A lot has been about the hubcaps, but having looked through old magazines, seen replicas for sale now and many designs based on the theme there is not a lot you can draw conclusively from them. It is a bit like trying to identify a frisbee from the seventies. Tesco, amazing, number of ribs and size etc. Mugs game really (with me the mug). Only thing to be gained is outside diameter and even then some were within rim diameter (more or less) and some overlapped tyre.
Re tyres interestingly a very old style tyre like a 125SR 15 (2CV type tyre) is about the same diameter as a 6.00 13 / 155/80 13 on an Alpine.
The above coupled with camera position makes things a bit tricky. Why? Please think of a point on car running horizontally to a point directly underneath the camera. Then you have the height of the camera as another side and hypotenuse is from camera to car point. What you have is a very long and thin triangle, so any adjustments to height of camera have more visual impact than the car getting slightly closer.
This is another reason why I modelled Oxford and Vere Street. Needed to work out environment. Was shocked at how wide Vere Street was in reality.
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Apr 29, 2021 11:21:10 GMT
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I love this thread.
I am just hoping that this really is a car!!
I'd hate for it to be an edited photograph...
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***GARAGE CURRENTLY EMPTY***
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Apr 29, 2021 11:32:02 GMT
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Oooh is this your company strongcomputer ? worthy of a thread on its own, amazing stuff. Working with Thornley Kelham is pretty special! Be careful. Some people have been threatened with legal action for asking the same question on PistonHeads.....
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Specialist Bodyshop & Fabrication Classic, Retro, Prestige & Custom Small Repairs to Concours Restorations Mechanical Work Vintage to Modern
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Mystery Car - Pistonheadsfr€$h&m1nt¥
@freshandminty
Club Retro Rides Member 99
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Apr 29, 2021 11:35:03 GMT
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Oooh is this your company strongcomputer ? worthy of a thread on its own, amazing stuff. Working with Thornley Kelham is pretty special! Be careful. Some people have been threatened with legal action for asking the same question on PistonHeads..... Intrigued!
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logicaluk
Posted a lot
Every days a school day round here
Posts: 1,373
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Apr 29, 2021 11:46:46 GMT
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Those wheels look like a rarther low profile for 1960's I love the work thats been put in to this. Dan I think the hubcaps contribute to giving a false impression of wheel size, plus if you look at the front wheel you can clearly see the tyre has quite a large sidewall that's hidden in the shadow. I was looking at the front wheel and the light gap in front of it.
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