mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 3,031
Club RR Member Number: 77
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IVA rules and regs mk2cossie
@mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member 77
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Sept 13, 2017 12:55:23 GMT
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So how would you prove your car was or they prove it wasn't modified more than 10 years ago? All this b0ll0cks legislation needs a complete overhaul, they seem to be determined to make it difficult to follow. I believe as far as DVSA are concerned, it's on the vehicle presenters back to prove when it was built and done. Hence all the fiasco that blackpop racing is going through with his Pop rod There is also rumours that there are some of their agents looking up stuff online to see whats going on. Made even worse by the "It'll be alright, I'll change the engine number and CC on the logbook and tell the insurance company" brigade that don't give two hoots to the system in place
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Sept 13, 2017 13:04:37 GMT
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Its answered in this line..... 'the date of manufacture of a vehicle becomes invalid once a vehicle is radically altered.'
So its doesn't matter how old the car is or when it was altered.
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Last Edit: Sept 13, 2017 13:05:49 GMT by Deleted
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Sept 13, 2017 13:19:43 GMT
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So how would you prove your car was or they prove it wasn't modified more than 10 years ago? Hi, I think having registered the change of details for the Chevy V8 engine number and size in your Mini more than 10 years ago would be a clue. Colin
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Sept 13, 2017 15:36:46 GMT
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Thank god mine is: Unmodified chassis Retains original running gear Retains stock suspension Retains stock engine displacement and type
Looks, goes, feels, sounds "radically altered" though... But every mod is bolt-on to original mounting points.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Sept 13, 2017 15:40:44 GMT
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This it REALLY worries me:
REBUILT? NEW PARTS??
So a ground up restored that sees a new stock engine, new gearbox, new floors and brand new upgraded brakes and a re-wire then?
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Sept 13, 2017 23:11:46 GMT
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This it REALLY worries me: REBUILT? NEW PARTS?? So a ground up restored that sees a new stock engine, new gearbox, new floors and brand new upgraded brakes and a re-wire then? No because that isn't radically altered if the engine and box are that of original type and the replaced floor is repair sections to match original. the wiring has noting to do with it.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Sept 14, 2017 5:24:28 GMT
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This it REALLY worries me: REBUILT? NEW PARTS?? So a ground up restored that sees a new stock engine, new gearbox, new floors and brand new upgraded brakes and a re-wire then? No because that isn't radically altered if the engine and box are that of original type and the replaced floor is repair sections to match original. the wiring has noting to do with it. But he specifically mentions rebuilds too. His reference to the ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's paradox, is a thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. He is not just talking about radical alterations, he is talking about rebuilds with stock parts too.
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lord13
Part of things
Posts: 537
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Sept 14, 2017 8:40:18 GMT
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yes it is true, a full rebuild using new parts will come under the IVA rules. It does state however that if parts over 25 years old are used, and are within the original spec, or an approved upgrade that would have been done at the time (I.E. period mods), AND that receipts can be produced for ALL parts, then the rebuilt vehicle would not need an IVA. In ALL other cases it would. So, effectively, if you fit new gas shocks to your MK2 escort, you lose 2 points (non original suspension), quick rack anyone? lose 2 points (non original steering), world cup crossmember lose 2 points ( non original axles, it states both must be original) you are now down to exactly 8 points....do anything else and you have a Q plate. similarly, if you use a 'second hand' body shell you lose 5 points, even if it is exactly the same type, so re-shells are out unless the shell is a brand new one (assuming it was brand new 25 years ago apparently) and if you do ANYTHING to the body shell at all you have a Q-plate as the shell is the 'must have' in any rebuild according to the DVSA. How many cars out there should be on a Q? I wish i'd never asked to be honest, I dare not do a damn thing
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Sept 14, 2017 9:44:20 GMT
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Might go and delete my build thread...
Makes it impossible to restore a car in theory?
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scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 1,503
Club RR Member Number: 8
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IVA rules and regs scimjim
@scimjim
Club Retro Rides Member 8
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Sept 14, 2017 13:58:23 GMT
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That reads quite well to me for something DVSA, if it was altered more than 10years ago it is exempt from IVA of either type. If it is within the last 10years it needs IVA. It would read well if that's what it said
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Darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 4,845
Club RR Member Number: 39
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IVA rules and regs Darkspeed
@darkspeed
Club Retro Rides Member 39
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Sept 14, 2017 18:17:59 GMT
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Where does it say that the DVSA deduct points if you maintain your even modify vehicle ? - How are points deducted? and from what? The statements are about how to retain original registration numbers and age realated plates when going through a particular registration process nothing more. A statement like "yes it is true, a full rebuild using new parts will come under the IVA rules" is rather misleading.
I think you can ignore the 10 year old thing as it's approaching the process from the wrong direction and just picking out a line in a document for a particular end - If you have a registration document for your car then it does not matter. This entire process is for registering cars and that just identifies an unregistered "old car" as opposed to an unregistered "new car" they have different processes. Drag a 9 year old new un-used unregistered MICRA out of a compound and have a new registration fixed on it - An 11 year old MICRA would go through a different system but would not require an IVA as it would have had a type approval that is still valid. It says old car - not radically altered old car or old kit car - it's just a differentiator between and old car and a new car.
A 25 year old never registered Ginetta G32 will not require BIVA for registration - it has a type approval and will be given an age related plate based on that. A 25 year old never registered Ginetta G27 will require BIVA as a kit as it was never type approved. A 50 year old never registered Ginetta G15 or a new build G15 with old verified components will also not require BIVA as they come under old vehicle and reconstructed vehicle registration processes.
The one that IS the problem for many here is number 8. on the registration list Radically Altered which is described
"Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been altered from their original specification, but aren’t kit conversions"
A rather simplistic statement that offers no limits or clarity - However, this is still for cars that are not registered but have been radically altered - An example could be a specialist convertible version of a brand new car that the manufacturer does no produce. All a bit of a grey area but I suspect that if it's not anthing that was done within reason by the original manufacturer (They all offer options on wheels, tyres, interiors engines, transmissions, in the same models - then it's radically altered - A turbo and bigger brakes from a specialist does not make for radically altered.
So, when do you make your existing registration void to require you to go through the process of a new registration? It's not about points - that's the function if you keep your existing registration number after the process. Who/what decides when your car is now not what it says on the original registration document.?
That line from Mr DVSA - 'the date of manufacture of a vehicle becomes invalid once a vehicle is radically altered.' that is when your existing V5c goes up in smoke.
The key is to keep your head down if running something questionable. Applying for tax free status on your 6.6L Standard Ten may get you noticed.
The bigger question to ask Mr DVSA, if you dare open the can or worms is what is deemed to be Radically Altered. But do not ask a question you may not like the answer to. I suspect we would all probably agree that a mid engine 5.0L V8 Mini van would have been radically altered and not something ever avaialble from the BL line and really should be re-registered as it's not BL's little delivery shuttle anymore - What about a 1275GT de-seamed with a roof chop? Radically Altered or just tastefully modified. And there is our problem.
Don't flaunt the questionable unless you fancy the task of defending it - My suspicision is that the reason "Radically Altered" is vague is so that that can make it what they want to to suit any particular situation.
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lord13
Part of things
Posts: 537
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Sept 16, 2017 5:54:04 GMT
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According to Mr DVSA, 'radically altered' is ANY mod to the chassis or monocoque that cuts into ANY part of the load bearing structure. You can add to it, within reason, but you can't take away basically. As for the 'if it's already registered it is fine' part, this is not the case, if you do a pick up conversion to your old viva or cortina then send your log book off to have 'pick up' put on it then you're gonna be subject to the IVA, if you don't send off your log book to be changed, it is invalid, and so is your insurance. Anyway, new rules for MOT are coming in now, the silver lining to all this is the MOT exemption for all cars over 40 years old...on a rolling basis from march next year . . . unless it's 'radically altered or modified' that is
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Last Edit: Sept 16, 2017 5:54:45 GMT by lord13
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Listen carefully, I will say this only once.
Any IMPORTED vehicle over 10 years old does NOT require an IVA test.
Any IMPORTED and MODIFIED aboard vehicle over 10 years old DOES require an IVA test.
Any imported and MODIFIED abroad vehicle CANNOT be tested because 'you' didn't build it.
It must be stripped to show 'YOUR' input into it's build to be acceptable PLUS it will need modifying to pass IVA standards in most cases.
As always EC glass will be the first major stumbling block with AS DOT etc etc NOT acceptable within Amateur build BIVA .
If anyone wants an 8 page pamphlet in the form of a Dummies Guide to BIVA I have a plain English version that can be used in conjuntion with the manual. It cost a £10 donation to my local Hospice plus £2 p&P . PM me if interested abd I'll print some more.
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Listen carefully, I will say this only once ( or twice it seems ? ) Any modified vehicle outside the 8 points needs IVA even if it's only a week old. Any IMPORTED vehicle over 10 years old does NOT require an IVA test. Any IMPORTED and MODIFIED aboard vehicle over 10 years old DOES require an IVA test. Any imported and MODIFIED abroad vehicle CANNOT be tested because 'you' didn't build it. It must be stripped to show 'YOUR' input into it's build to be acceptable PLUS it will need modifying to pass IVA standards in most cases. As always EC glass will be the first major stumbling block with AS DOT etc etc NOT acceptable within Amateur build BIVA . If anyone wants an 8 page pamphlet in the form of a Dummies Guide to BIVA I have a plain English version that can be used in conjuntion with the manual. It cost a £10 donation to my local Hospice plus £2 p&P . PM me if interested abd I'll print some more.
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Last Edit: Oct 2, 2017 18:28:47 GMT by kapri
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The above are FACTS by the way . If you don't like them then it makes no difference as they are NOT going away nor are they open to discussion , so I won't.
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Your knowledge knows no bounds Kev.
My only query is how Red Victor managed to get a BIVA? Surely his chassis has been more than just 'boxed' etc? I don't understand how it could possibly pass legally?
Any idea? (Although, as he built his own car, that must stand for something?)
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96 E320 W210 Wafter - on 18" split Mono's - Sold :-( 10 Kia Ceed Sportwagon - Our new daily 03 Import Forester STi - Sold 98 W140 CL500 AMG - Brutal weekend bruiser! Sold :-( 99 E240 S210 Barge - Now sold 02 Accord 2.0SE - wife's old daily - gone in PX 88 P100 2.9efi Custom - Sold
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It is a full chassis car and the body just keeps the wind off Lots of different ways to skin a cat and, if planned from the off, it is even possible to avoid a Q ( if it's a problem for 'you' ) and end up with an age related on a monococque . Nothing dodgy, just all in the planning. A 'replica rod' ,if planned correctly can end up with an age related plate issued by DVLA even .
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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I'm still curious / worried about the chap's email, from his "Ship of Theseus" comment...
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Ship of Theseus is basically an Oxbridge educated person's version of Trigger's broom.
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fad
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,781
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Ship of Theseus is basically an Oxbridge educated person's version of Trigger's broom. I know what it means, I meant that if a car is heavily restored, at what point do they think it needs assessing?
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