1970 Ginetta G15

[Darkspeed]

Aug 12, 2022 16:24:56 GMT Alpina99 said:

I love these sort of threads,
The quality of the work carried out, both body / chassis work and engineering work is first class,
Not only readable but educational as well,
Nigel

Thanks Nigel very kind - hopefully one day I will finish one of these things and make a few posts about using them.... one day sigh!



Too freaking warm and not much really getting done.


I made another stand for the engine for NHK welding in this heat - daft - The paint dries quickly though








JB weld epoxied the holes in the water pump casing.







While that cured I faced the seal lands on the impeller and lapped the mechanical seal faces on some fine wet and dry. Once that was done I cut a new gasket and put it together.





Just need to rig up a test frame and see how it performs.


Will run a comparison against a NOS QH Pump





Need to order parts to rebuild the "Rootes" casing pump - the other pump in bits does not have a great impeller as the seal lands are very worn (left) - I have a number of other pumps that I will strip and see what good bits I can assemble I will collect them from the barn tomorrow and strip them down.



With a bit of luck I should end up with 4 good pumps and a couple of "reserves"

[Darkspeed]

Well, the plot thickens with these water pumps. I went up the barn today and collected a pump with no visible brand and a clearly marked Quinton Hazel with tape on labelled Crusty

Pump 1 - Bizzo (QH)- Reconditioned pump - Measured head Low RPM - 780mm
Pump 2 - Bizzo - Original pump on PHX - Measured head Low RPM - 860mm - High RPM - 2100mm
Pump 3 - DS-1 (QH) - Measured head high RPM - 2190mm
Pump 4 - Itchy 1 - Measured head high RPM - 2000mm
Pump 5 - DS-Chrysler Original - Measured head high RPM - 3400mm ++
Pump 6 - Molebert - Chrysler rebuilt - Measured Head high RPM - 2400mm
Pump 7 - DS-2 - Measured head high RPM - 2310mm
Pump 8 - DS-Crusty (QH)- Measured head high RPM - 2100mm

Think that DS-1 (QH) is actually the no brand one - This all had tape on so was part of the testing.

"Crusty" the QH pump has a different inlet casing again to "Rootes" and "Chrysler" - It's currently in the Ultrasonic so no pictures yet.
It also has a smaller impeller 63mm dia - Rootes and Chrysler are 66mm dia. "DS-1" - Has a plastic impeller that is also 63mm - The Outlet casings all look the same apart from a couple of differences on DS-1 that makes me think that this is a very early pump. Photo's to follow.

Cannot be totally sure at the moment but it looks like the QH pumps are a copy of an early water pump design and the small impeller may explain the lower performance.

[Darkspeed]

QH pump -





"Rootes" pump -

[teaboy]

It's all pump and squirt at your place DS.

[Darkspeed]

Actually quite a lot of Paladins at the moment.





...but not all Paladins - There is also some LBDA and Op Ivy going on..







...and of course Joe and the crew

[Darkspeed]

Took a bit of time off from water pumps and decided to strip a gearbox. This particular gearbox was reportedly sounding pretty rough after seeing action in the back of PHX during the 2017 Tour of Cheshire.

Excuse the dirt and mess it was removed after the rally wrapped in plastic and stored - decisions will be made on its future at a later date.

Rear cover off - do not worry about the roller it is supposed to be there - well not there exactly - its out of its location as the cover came off.





Centre casing off - does not look too bad





And then into the diff where there were a few lumps of steel and alloy in the bottom of the casing





Tooth was from a planet gear





And as things are pretty close fitting in the casing the CROWNwheel punted it into the casing





The casing broke out and distorted the diff casing access cover and seal





And all the oil leaked out.


It probably leaked under pressure initially as the gearbox vent was blocked solid


Once thoroughly cleaned I may use it for a bit of TIG practice. The box is nothing special - just a STD ratio box - but it is the later strong casing type.

[bizzo]

Thanks DS for the forensic analysis - that would explain the big pool of oil at the end of the Bolesworth special test! Last test of the event, 2017 Tour of Cheshire, made the finish just down the road at the Bickerton Poacher but it was whining a bit by then...

[Darkspeed]

Looking at the bearings and the Syncro rings it does not look like it ran without oil for any sort of extended period. The selector rings and forks show a little bit of pick up - you can just make it out in the photo above - but the gears, shafts, bronze bushings and the bearings all appear in fairly reasonable order considering - The oil that was left - a teaspoon full! was clean and not full of metal sheen. There was some metal debris in the box where I would speculate some of the casing alloy parts got minced, but not much of it.

The diffs can be a weak point in these boxes when increased power is used. The cross pin is a bit on the weak side - Roy had some toughened pins made which went in two or three of the boxes - I know my CR/SC box has one.


I can see lots of scraping paint and dirt from casings in my future - thankfully they are not a big box.

[bizzo]

Aug 21, 2022 8:14:14 GMT Darkspeed said:

Looking at the bearings and the Syncro rings it does not look like it ran without oil for any sort of extended period. The selector rings and forks show a little bit of pick up - you can just make it out in the photo above - but the gears, shafts, bronze bushings and the bearings all appear in fairly reasonable order considering - The oil that was left - a teaspoon full! was clean and not full of metal sheen.

It didn't run for long in that condition, it was only a couple of miles to final MTC so we decided to go for a finish - knowing both that PHX was due for a body off rebuild, and also (as you indicate above) that the box was just standard Imp helical ratios and nothing special, might have thought twice if it had been SC/CR... It was still losing oil in the finish car park and then trailered back home...

[Darkspeed]

A bit more checking and measuring and the baulk rings have all seen better days - a couple are on the limit but could be used again but two are toast and there is clear evidence of contact on them - probably the 1st and 2nd gear rings - 2nd usually dies first in a box.

[Darkspeed]

Bit of monkey metal TIG welding today








Temperature sensor boss onto Hillman Imp thermo housing. Turned up a boss and then cleaned up the cover in the lathe to give me the best chance of success with this material bolted up with a large steel washer on the inside to provide a backing and support for the weld.








Its awful to weld but it worked out okay and only one instance of porosity and contaminants coming through into the weld.





Then another water pump autopsy - this was another of the test subjects and the worst performing of all. Its a remanufactured unit - not sure who by but its similar to the QH units - small impeller type. The seals were another make again and I have tracked them down to being used on Hot tubs and the like!





The reason it performed so poorly is that whoever had rebuilt had bonded the ceramic part of the seal to the impeller - A nice idea by the way -





- but without reducing the impeller depth to compensate This pushes the impeller a long way from the volute.





When compared to a stock impeller





Other end Iron seal - not so great





If done correctly this type of seal arrangement with the ceramic seat bonded to a modified 66mm impeller in a "Rootes" casing could make for a very good pump.

[Darkspeed]

Whilst continuing to do the in depth interrogation of Imp water pumps there are a couple of things I have discovered with pumps being rebuilt by others.

An area that gets damaged on the pumps are the threads that hold the pulley and fan on and to recover these damaged pumps the threads are cut off and the pump shaft tapped for a bolt.





However, what is not taken in to account is that the woodruff key protrudes into the thread so when so when the key is pushed home and the bolt done up....





Hmmmm.

The other issue is that the original early pumps had a "slinger/flinger" call it what you will to provide a protection of the original bearings from water seepage. Later when the casting was modified to provide a "sump" the "flinger" was changed for shims.





That sit on that shoulder.





If you exclude these shims which appears to be the case on all the rebuilt pumps I have come across - It changes the distance of the impeller to the volute casing, creates a larger gap, and also changes the position of the pulley on the pump by 2mm. With the larger alloy pulley's this means that they hit the pump casing.

The other thing is that the original woodruff key - shown above - is a truncated version so that they do not get driven into the bearings. The replacements provided with rebuild kits are not so take care.





Minor things but if you are going to do a rebuild of an imp pump they are worth taking into account.

Finally bearings





Many pumps have the 6202 ZZ shielded bearing types with a metal sheild - these can allow dust and water into the bearing - I personally do not rate them for this application. My preference is for the 2RS with the rubber seals that completely seal the bearing.

[blackpopracing]

It's all in the details......

[Darkspeed]

Rigged up a pump head test column to test the JB weld repaired "Chrysler" pump that was modified to match the "Rootes" pump that had the highest performance in the previous tests.




Pump 5 - DS-Chrysler Original - Measured head high RPM - 3400mm ++ (the Rootes pump)


The rig - The top of the tubing on the rig is 3100mm from the water level (static head) in the reservoir





I did not have the same test drill to use as we used for the initial tests which was a 3000 RPM at no load Bosch - My two mains drills are a 2800 RPM at no load Worx and a 2500 no load RPM Wickes own brand.

Using the Worx, 700 watt which was slowed slightly when driving the pump, the head generated exactly matched the height of the test rig ! at 3100mm. With the Wickes the height reached was around 300mm lower - on own so this was an estimate.

Although this test proves pretty conclusively that the Rootes pump was no fluke and the modifications to the casing do increase the performance considerably I am going to borrow the same drill used on the original tests to carry out another few test comparisons.

The bizzo Pump 1 - Bizzo (QH)- Reconditioned pump - Measured head Low RPM - 780mm - from the tests last year will be given the chance of a full RPM test head to head challenge with the JB weld - big impeller - modified case pump.

[briang]

How big a gap have you got between the impellor vanes and the housing? On the Elan engine where you have to assemble the pump into the timing chest the manual calls for 20-30 thou clearance.

Brian.

[Darkspeed]

Sept 9, 2022 20:00:54 GMT briang said:

How big a gap have you got between the impellor vanes and the housing? On the Elan engine where you have to assemble the pump into the timing chest the manual calls for 20-30 thou clearance.

Brian.

Still not machined up the dummy bearings to do the clearance measuring to see what they are as stock. The 20-30 thou clearance figure is interesting information - The shims being missed out of rebuilt Imp pumps increase the distance - from whatever it starts at - by 40 thou - Will have to try and find some detail of the Lotus info.

[briang]

I can send a scan (pdf) from the manual if I could work out how to attach it to a pm...

Sorted, pm sent.

[jamesd1972]

Sept 9, 2022 21:46:51 GMT briang said:

I can send a scan (pdf) from the manual if I could work out how to attach it to a pm...

Sorted, pm sent.

Or take a picture with your phone and upload that ?
James

[briang]

Sept 11, 2022 7:03:45 GMT jamesd1972 said:

Sept 9, 2022 21:46:51 GMT briang said:

I can send a scan (pdf) from the manual if I could work out how to attach it to a pm...

Sorted, pm sent.

Or take a picture with your phone and upload that ?
James

************************** Luddite alert*********************************

I can take a picture of my phone and upload that for your amusement.....


Brian.

[Darkspeed]

Still messing about with Imp water pumps but this is probably the last of it as the testing, rebuilding and modifying has confirmed everything that we wanted.

The 1mm thick 15mm ID shims arrived as did a PS-1000 seal to see if it fitted as expected - It does.





As I now had the shims I put together an old 63mm pump - may get a test this weekend .





I was hoping to also put together another 66mm pump with the modified casing but as happens these days with buying parts what arrived was not entirely as the supplier had shown but strangely looked exactly like the seal they also had which was a third of the price!