1968 Daimler 250 v8 - Moving on

[goldnrust]

Oh dear...

There I was merrily driving along, running a couple errands when the engine just cut out, I coasted down for a few seconds and then it cut back in. Time to turn for home I thought... it did it a couple more times, cutting out for a few seconds then coming back to life, and I made it to about 3 miles from home when it decided to cut out for good.

Erghh. Well I've been here enough times in my life, I wasn't too worried, it was time to check the old air/fuel/spark and see what was up. My first guess was a lack of spark, because of the way it cut in and out just like the key had been switched off. A quick crank over with a plug lead pulled confirmed this. As an aside, I am grateful of the fact that Daimler put a push button on the starter solenoid thats bolted to the fire wall for this kind of task. Makes it much easier on my own (a guy doesn't even need to buy a Lonewolf 9000!).

So no spark, and I've only got my rudimentary basic tool kit in the boot that doesn't include a multi meter. I didn't have anything to check for 12v at the coil, but I did have some wire, so I was able to bodge a line directly from the battery to the coil, which made no difference so I presumed that was not the problem. While mucking about with this, I did manage to shock myself on the coil... hmm. Pulling the king lead it seemed I'd found the problem. The Daimler uses screw in type plug leads, as the one at the coil appears to have come loose, letting water in and allowing corrosion to build up and there must have been some arcing meaning the plastic screw in fitting was partially melted/errorded and the lead was no longer touching the contact in the coil. I pushed the lead home tried again and the car started!! A bit of electrical tape kept the lead pushing in tight and I limped home, much to my relief.

A couple of days later I thought it time to do a proper fix on this. Here we have the before, you can see on the left the clean shiny end of the lead that goes into the dizzy and on the right the dirty melted coil side.



I cleaned it up, and cleaned up the contact in the coil. My multimeter gave sensible resistances for both the lead and the primary and secondary windings of the coil, so all looked promising.



Later that night I thought I'd take it on a test run. Now in hindsight 10:30pm on a work night in the rain wasn't the best test run moment really... I fired there car up, pulled off the drive and it coughed a bit, 'it'll be fine...' I thought.I made it about 300 yards from home when it cut out again. I was able coax it, coughing and splitting and firing on half the cylinders, about half the way back but that was it. I pushed it home from there, mercifully it was flat but I was still really awkward down a narrow unlit access road behind my house and I was shattered by the time I rolled it on to the drive and abandoned it in disgust.

A week or so later when I'd stopped swearing at it under my breath, I had another look. I clearly had no spark at all, and no jiggling of wires or anything could bring it back. This time at home, with more tools and parts, I could be more diagnostic. There was power to the coil and it still measured good resistances on the primary and secondary coils. I tried a spare coil, just incase, but that only confirmed that the coil was not at fault. The problem clearly lay in the electronic ignition I'd fitted to replace the 'unreliable' points...



Before I spent money on a replacement, I thought I'd try popping the points back in and see if I could get it to fire on those.



These engines have a neat twin points design, where one set of points deal with the start of the dwell and the second set do the breaking of the circuit. I believe the idea is that it reduced the wear on the contacts and gave more accurate duel control? Either way the points were good, where I'd struggled in the past, and why I'd moved to electronic ignition in the first place, is condensers.

Around the time I got the Daimler first up and running, I'd just given up on points with my motorbike due to regular condenser failure. The modern replacement condensers just seemed to be of poor quality and not up to the task. Then when I tried to get the Daimler going it turned out the new condenser I'd fitted was failed out of the box and I threw in the towel and fitted the electronic ignition.

I'd conveniently forgotten about the failed condenser when I was refitting the points... Still with the points fitted and gapped, the car would cough and run for a second or two. A definitely improvement, but not right. I checked the static timing, which was about 20 degrees retarded (I had presumed there would be no difference between the points and electronic pickup timing but was clearly wrong!) so I adjusted that which was an improvement but it was still not happy. Then I remembered about the condenser issue.

After a minute or two of resolving to give up for the day and go order another electronic pick up, I remembered that I had the original condenser that came with my Fiat kicking out in the shed. It must be from the 80s at the youngest but it was an easy thing to fit and worth a shot.

Now the Daimler fired right up, faster than It ever does on the electronic pick up and idled several hundred rpm higher! Once I'd turned the idle down a bit I took it for a test run and it was running really strong, pulling harder at the high revs than it has for ages A few posts back you will find I was struggling with what I thought was a weak spark at high rpms, so possibly this electronic pick up had been on it's last legs for some time!

Clearly sometimes the old ways are the best....

Anyway, I'm required to go into a clients office for work for this next week, so I figure using the Daimler will give it a good shake down and root out any other issues waiting in the wings. Wish me luck! haha.

[spacekadett]

Was that an Accuspark unit you had fitted? Had a similar experience with the one I fitted to the Pinto in my 100E. That would randomly not start and muck around, and when I did finally get it to play up when I could test it the spark was very hit and miss. Swapped it for a Lumenition Magnetronic and had to advance the timing loads and reset the tick over but it’s transformed. Runs much nicer and starts first time even when it’s been left for a few weeks.

Glad you got it sorted, one of these is still high on my want list 🙂

[ivanhoew]

what a brilliant result .

[sebastiaan]

Apr 10, 2023 22:02:57 GMT spacekadett said:

Was that an Accuspark unit you had fitted? Had a similar experience with the one I fitted to the Pinto in my 100E. 

Same here with an accuspark unit in a fiat 500. Went back to points: problem solved.

Never again.

[tofufi]

I too have heard a few stories of unreliable electronic ignition setups. I tend to keep points and condensor, or go to a home-made transistorised ignition setup as per here:

www.velleman.co.uk/contents/en-uk/p199.html

I generally build them so that the wires are on spade terminals and a 2-second operation can see me switch back to using the condensor if it fails!

[edwagon]

How do the twin points work? Lucas 20DV8 distributor? I can't find anything useful online.

Sorry the Accujunk didn't work out but glad you're all sorted now!

[goldnrust]

It was a Powerspark ignition unit. I’m sure half of these things are the same thing with a different sticker on…

I’ve got two of them on my motorbike still, which is a much more hostile environment than the Daimler engine bay, so I guess it’s just pot luck. If I could sort my condenser issues out I’d happily go back to points in that too!

A lot of the Fiat 500 guys swear by the Swiftune condensers, made for racing Minis, so that’s one avenue to explore. Likewise I’ve been looking into prewar motorbikes recently and reading up a bit on magnetos and found some interesting information about suitable modern capacitors to replace the condenser inside the Magneto with, so another thing I could explore.

I ran a similar transistorised ignition on my Lancia, tofufi. Ultimately, like this Powerspark unit, it was good for a while then played up and I went back to points.

edwagon, yes it’s a Lucas 20d8 distributer. The twin points are wired in parallel, so if either set of contacts is closed then the coil is charging. It’s set up so one set closes and starts the coil charging, then the second set closes several degrees later. When the first set opens, the second set is still closed so the coil keeps charging. Then when the second set opens the circuit is broken and the spark plug fires. I have a feeling a read something about this meaning the flow of electricity in the same direction (one set always starting the changing and the other always ending it) would help reduce pitting or transfer of material on the points? I don’t quite understand how or why that might be. I had also read about it offering more fine tuning of dwell. Certainly if you adjust the gap on the first set of points to change the dwell it doesn’t change the ignition timing like a normal single set of points would?

I’m sure it served a purpose in the 60s, but the advantages would be superseded by any of the electronic pick ups or transistorised ignitions (if only they worked! Haha).

[gtviva]

Do you want to give one of these a go, looks awfully close the way its mounted, these are made in Germany and new old stock from the late 80s 90s so should be good ones! PM me your address and I will bung one in the post and if its any good I have about 300 in stock!

[kevins]

I'd second the Lumenition, the one on my Elan has been there the 30 Years I have had it and was far from new then, still works perfectly. The std Range Rover V8 electronic one also seems pretty good I have one on the TR and Range Rover both have never given a problem.

[ivanhoew]

id do this GNR , i like these 4 pin modules .jst run it off the points .


www.mgexp.com/forum/mgb-and-gt-forum.1/points-triggered-gm-hei-4-pin-module.4215048/



in fact id probably try putting your accuspark back on , and seeing if it triggers the module , then no need for a transistor n stuff .

[goldnrust]

That’s very kind of you gtviva I will drop you a message.

I hadn’t realised the GM HEI could be used like that ivanhoew. That seems like an appealing option for a transistorised ignition, as it should have OEM reliability levels.

I should also say that if I really wanted a powerful spark then I have a Speeduino ECU sat on the shelf and was planning to go coil on plug with that, could have some great big sparks jumping 1.1mm gaps… Just got to want to spend the time and money to finish it off! Haha.

[ivanhoew]

Re 4 pin modules ,

i have used them triggered by the ford electronic duraspark pick up , on a 72 torino ,

On one of medusa's engines triggered by the jag pickup in the dizzy ,

Also on the silver bike in my thread , i had no cdi box for it , and wanted to make a simple fixed timing setup , so used the honda pickup , and another pickup mounted in the case 180 degrees from the honda one , then had a toothed wheel with one tooth, each pickup triggered a 4 pin module which switched a hayabusa coil on plug to earth , and later i put a msd mc1 cdi box on it , triggered by each module for two outputs to the busa plugs .

[goldnrust]

This morning I put one of gtviva condensers on, it fits in the distributer nicely and feels a much better quality item than any of the new condensers I'd tried.



Most importantly the car starts and runs nicely with it!

But with that sorted, it's time for a new chapter in the life of this old car. It's taken me 6 months of indecision to come to this conclusion, but after 4 years with this car I'm ready for a change. The car deserves to be used, it's spending far too much time just under the cover here. I will appreciate recovering the space, time and money it takes up (especially as I've already got the next project in the pipeline, oops!) and the new owner will appreciate a very well mechanically sorted, if cosmetically imperfect, Daimler to drive and enjoy.

There are some tidying up jobs that intend to do before advertising it properly, so there may be a few more updates to come, but if anyone's interested in the mean time, drop me a message!

[jehu]

And I was so looking forward to seeing the supercharger project completed. This photo above gives a great view of the resulting stance from lowering. I look forward to hearing about the new project in due course. All the best with the change over.

[paul99]

My first car (Mk 1 Cavalier) used to eat condensers, 4 in a year. Fortunately I could hear the change in note when cranking, and changing it was a 5 minute job.......

[darrenh]

goldnrust so daimler fitted a push button to the steal me junction, thats convenient

ive read some pretty convincing arguments about sticking with points breaker.

1st, most notably is that two pads cracking apart mechanically to collapse field winding (points) doesnt give two hoots about 30 to 40,000 volts magnetic field scooshing past it half an inch away from the rotor arm.... whereas a reed switch, IR chopper or hall effect sensor in electronic ignition most definitely DOES !

2nd is that hall effect sensor collapses the field windings so quickly (very little dwell) that it has way more time to be influenced with regards spark timing (see above)

[goldnrust]

May 5, 2023 18:02:47 GMT darrenh said:

goldnrust so daimler fitted a push button to the steal me junction, thats convenient

It's a handy little feature certainly helps a fella (or fellette) out from time to time.

Points vs electronic ignition module does seen to be a fairly polarising topic! In terms of my personal experience over the past decade I'm at a draw. The Lancia Fulvia and the Daimler seemed to like their points, my motorbike and the Triumph Spitfire were happier on electronic ignition.

Not to worry though, the next project will have a magneto, so thats a whole other world of madness!

[goldnrust]

Well the sale prep is moving pretty slowly... 2 months later and I've only recently made a start. haha.

First step was to wash it, a rare treat for my fleet.



As usual, once it's clean and sat there, looking shiny and wonderful, the next step is to doubt whether I really want to sell it, before coming round to the idea again and moving on to the next job on the list!

Front wheel bearing adjustment was next, they'd worked their way a little loose. No signs of wear or metal or anything, just needed to go one half a flat tighter, up to the next split pin hole, and all was well again..



Then some other bits and bobs on general maintenance, I adjusted the choke linkage a bit, topped up the transmission fluid, and gave the engine bay a bit of a wipe down. It's still not the tidiest, things like the DIY open air filters aren't cosmetically great, but it'll do for now.



The alternator warning light had come on a bit recently, it was still charging according to the ammeter and I confirmed a healthy 14v with the multimeter...



...so I presumed that my homemade circuit to replace the original (and obsolete) bimetallic relay had failed and bought an off the shelf modern replacement.



Sadly this was not the fix, so I was too quick to blame my DIY solution and could have saved myself the £40 of buying a replacement! More fool me! More investigation showed that the alternator was only putting out 3-4v AC on the wire leading to the warning light controller, this should be in the region of 7v according to the manuals. I took the alternator out and stripped it down, revealing a corroded and loose connection on the warning light signal post.



I've cleaning that up and reassembled the alternator but am yet to put it back in the car to know if the fix worked. Fingers crossed!

Presuming the alternator warning light is sorted, then my last job before sale is to tidy up a few bits on the interior. When I was originally doing the interior a couple off years ago the glue I bought, from a well know trim supplier recommended by a previously very active forum member, turned out to be not very good. As a result some bits need re-gluing down. First up was the vinyl on the door card crash pads was coming away, so I pulled all4 crash pads off and re-glued the vinyl down, and it looks much neater.



I also did the under dash cover panels and will do the heater control surround also.

That was kinda just procrastinating though, and ignoring the elephant in the room... the head lining. The head lining has been sagging bit by bit for some time, and this summer has got a lot worse. I then made the mistake of reading about re-activating the glue by heating it up with a hair drier, and proceeded to almost melt the polyester and made things worse.



My first attempt was to take the front edge trim off, and try to get my arm inside the head lining and just spray some trim adjustive in there and push the head lining back up. This did not look good...



... and to make things worse it had fallen down again within 48 hours. So there was nothing for it but to rip it all out and start over again.



I bought some new material, but managed to mess up while trying to fit it. With the foam backed material and contact adhesive, there's only one chance to get it right, and I put a crease into it and then only made things worse trying to fix that. So once again tore it down and will have too order more material. Let's hope 3rd times the charm! I got the head lining in crease free and perfect when I did it 2 years ago, so I just hop. I can replicate that again, haha.

Once the head lining is sorted, then I just need to swap my Wideband AFR gauge for a tasteful clock and then give the car a good clean out and polish and then it's time to write that advert 🙂

[ivanhoew]

What was the bad glue. And what did you end up using gnr ?

[goldnrust]

The glue I wasn't happy with was Martrim own brand. There is more than just the glue are play here though, when the head lining first started sagging (over a year ago), that was the Martrim glue, but by this spring the self adhesive on the sound proofing had also come adrift from the roof, and it was this that would not stick back up with some more spray glue when I attempted a bodge it a couple of weeks back.

I'm using 'trim-fix' glue this time, which I've used on a couple of other projects and been happy with.

Second time lucky, I did manage to get the new head lining up without any drama this time. There's a couple of imperfections in the passengers rear corner, but it's more than good enough for the rest of the car.





I also got round to removing the Wideband o2 sensor. I popped a clock in the gap in the dashboard to look tidy for selling the car. Also helpful, as the clock in the dashboard has never worked!



And so with that it was time for a damn good clean, inside and out and then to take some pictures and put it up for sale!









The advert will likely go live in the morning once it's been approved, time to play the waiting game to see if anyone is interested in it. It's a difficult car to price, and looking at other adverts values are all over the place. Hopefully I've not tried to be too greedy and the car will find a new home without too much drama. 🙂