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Jan 30, 2020 19:32:55 GMT
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Hi, I'm looking for advice and thoughts from you very knowledgeable enthusiasts here as to my plans for my current project. I need to fit a replacement engine and gearbox and have an idea that the S type AJ30 manual gearbox and engine will fit in the restricted space available. Due to it's overall dimensions it should fit and as they are cheap and readily available seem so far, to be ideal. From what I've read the management system is complex and difficult to retrofit so have the intention to dispense with it and run carburettors some how, with possibly ignition handled using Edis module .Obviously economy and power will be down but should fit. The area outside my knowledge ( although I understand the principles)is VVT (variable valve timing) and variable inlet length manifold that could be issues and wonder if there is a way to overcome this by locking them in a fixed position or switched automatically some way and what effect doing this will have. Any ideas please? Thanks.
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mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 2,937
Club RR Member Number: 77
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Jaguar S Type AJ 30 enginemk2cossie
@mk2cossie
Club Retro Rides Member 77
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Jan 30, 2020 19:45:18 GMT
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If you are ditching the Jaguar management, the best option would be to go for an Emerald K6 ecu. Pretty sure they have enough outputs to control all the VVT stuff on the AJ30 lump, and are easily tweaked/tuned to suit And getting it running with the standard sensors and an Emerald will be better/more driveable/easier to do than carbs ever will be on a modern engine designed with low emissions output from the start
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93fxdl
Posted a lot
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,991
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Jan 30, 2020 20:59:07 GMT
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Might be an idea to contact rocketeer as they make kits to fit aj30 into an mx5, so could be a source of parts and info rocketeerinfo.wordpress.comTtfn Glenn
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Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 20:59:56 GMT by 93fxdl
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Jan 30, 2020 21:14:25 GMT
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Looking at our 3.0 ford Maverick with the same (ish) engine I think the easiest way would be to source a loom and inlet manifold from either a maverick or Mazda tribune as they don't have the same amount of things integrated into them, the earlier the better and just thin it out till you have just the basics. On this version the EML light being on does not restrict performance.
Pocketrocket on the transit forum said whilst the Mondeo 2.5 V6 system can be made to fit (he did it) it was never quite right and fuel consumption was significantly worse than expected. Pretty sure the VVT was just a power on/off type set up.
Or just go for an emerald or something
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Last Edit: Jan 30, 2020 21:15:07 GMT by dodgerover
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Badger
Part of things
Posts: 250
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Jan 30, 2020 22:33:42 GMT
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Finally, a subject I can actually be helpful on! I've spent the last few years shoehorning one into a Haynes Roadster so know a bit about them The stock engine management is difficult but not impossible to get working - there's one guy over on LocostBuilders who managed it. This does have some advantages as the stock system uses a return-less fuel set up with the fuel pump controlled by the ECU. The stock fuel rail takes a bit of modifying into a return fuel system, but that's what I've done. The stock intake isn't variable length per se, but has two tracts of different length between which valves alternate the airflow on demand; very easy to lock out or just remove the valves. The VVT is quite similar - it's a simple on/off arrangement and can be left off or permanently on if desired. I use an Emerald K6 on my set up - I used to run individual throttle bodies but they were too problematic, so have switched over to an ST200 manifold (which some folk on LCB have got 270hp out of). It's not a straight swap but doable without machine tools or welding; just a lot of elbow grease and drilling! I may go back to the ITB's after I get the thing through the IVA though! These threads have a fair amount of info: www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=184341www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=214370 Hope that helps
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gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 330
Club RR Member Number: 157
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Jaguar S Type AJ 30 enginegryphon
@gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member 157
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I've recently got rather familiar with the 2002.5MY+ CVVT variant of this engine with my rocketeer build... and just had a little conversation about the VVT in the thread here: forum.retro-rides.org/post/2566638/threadThere is a very good 'Technical Guide' to the engine from Jaguar here. Over the ford variants of the engine they have a forged crank, fracture split con rods and the VVT/CVVT with buckets and shims instead of rockers. When I started my Rocketeer build I was advised to find a <50k mile engine if I wanted a good one... but they are unicorn poo. First engine I bought was on ~85k. All bores were scored to varying degrees and the main bearings were well past their best. Second engine I bought was a newer CVVT variant @97k miles, bores were really good big end bearings were worn with number 6 being utterly shot. There also seems to be a trend (in rocketeer builds) of people taking a good engine from a donor jag and finding it starts smoking in the mx5. The scoring is apparently a bit of a known issue caused by an overzealous EGR valve. Bad big end bearings just seem to be a trend - My advice for buying an engine would be to get a cheap ebay endoscope (£7) and scope the bores before buying it, and change the big end bearings at minimum. I also know of some ME442 ECUs that were the original Rocketeer ones going second hand and NOS. While ME has built a good reputation with 4 cylinder engines they seemed to struggle a little running the V6 - although that may well just be the dubious Rocketeer dual throttle body setup causing issues. They swapped to new throttlebodies (instead of reusing old MX5 ones) along with the new ECU. Possibly not the lowest effort option, but probably cheap!
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Jan 31, 2020 10:38:30 GMT
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Not wishing to be negative (what’s not to like about a cheap V6 with manual RWD box attached!), however..... a few moments for a reality check can be a good investment of time.....
Noting the comments about the the engines frequently having serious mechanical issues (scored bores, knackered bearings) at well below 100k miles, I’d file it under not worth the effort of converting! Even if you get a good one, how long before it self destructs?
A quick poke around on the web will show that oil consumption and bearing problems are not exactly unknown in the donors.
Oil use/smoking may go unnoticed in the donor car due to the catalyst which is surprisingly good at processing oil smoke, whereas many a conversion recipient has no cat at all.
Choosing because cheap becomes less cheap if you have buy three engines to get one that works - or rebuild one. Not sure if they even can be rebored, but even if you can, I doubt pistons are cheap......
On the original question, I’d keep the injection hardware and use an aftermarket ECU. You’ll have to do something electronic for the ignition anyway and the injection gear comes free with the engine.
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Jan 31, 2020 11:36:24 GMT
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If you want to go to carbs it would be pretty easy to make a inlet manifold to take a 4 barrel or similar, won't be as powerfull or clean as the efi set up but should there's no reason why it wont work and have plenty of torque and still sound great, the VVT will just stay at one end of it's travel if left alone (they usually default to the lowest overlap which is best for lower engine speed and emissions) and you will have already junked all the inlet stuff so that just leaves setting up something like a mega jolt for ignition. If you've got the skills to make a manifold it's a good alternative to something like an essex V6.
I believe the bore issues are due to the egr re-circulating debris from the catalyst, Ford re-called a number of Mondeo's to replace engines because of this.
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gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 330
Club RR Member Number: 157
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Jaguar S Type AJ 30 enginegryphon
@gryphon
Club Retro Rides Member 157
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Jan 31, 2020 12:29:15 GMT
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I believe the bore issues are due to the egr re-circulating debris from the catalyst, Ford re-called a number of Mondeo's to replace engines because of this. The jags seem to have suffered from the same. I think if you buy an engine with good bores they'll stay that way. From my limited sample size of 1, Jag may have fixed it with the CVVT engine introduction as the cvvt engine had spotless bores at almost 100k miles... The VVT will sit in its retarded state, opening at TDC if you just leave it as is. One possible concern with this is that on the VVT (Vs CVVT) engines the VVT is fed oil though the front cam bearing. With the VVT off, this bearing receives reduced oil flow - never heard of it causing an issue but maybe worth noting. The VVT can be activated with a single relay... It might be that you can get an output from there megajolt type system that just goes on over 1k rpm to trigger it? Those locost threads are an interesting read
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Last Edit: Jan 31, 2020 13:01:49 GMT by gryphon
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Jan 31, 2020 17:55:25 GMT
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Finally, a subject I can actually be helpful on! I've spent the last few years shoehorning one into a Haynes Roadster so know a bit about them The stock engine management is difficult but not impossible to get working - there's one guy over on LocostBuilders who managed it. This does have some advantages as the stock system uses a return-less fuel set up with the fuel pump controlled by the ECU. The stock fuel rail takes a bit of modifying into a return fuel system, but that's what I've done. The stock intake isn't variable length per se, but has two tracts of different length between which valves alternate the airflow on demand; very easy to lock out or just remove the valves. The VVT is quite similar - it's a simple on/off arrangement and can be left off or permanently on if desired. I use an Emerald K6 on my set up - I used to run individual throttle bodies but they were too problematic, so have switched over to an ST200 manifold (which some folk on LCB have got 270hp out of). It's not a straight swap but doable without machine tools or welding; just a lot of elbow grease and drilling! I may go back to the ITB's after I get the thing through the IVA though! These threads have a fair amount of info: www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=184341www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=214370 Hope that helps great stuff thanks for the reply, I'll have a good read.
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Jan 31, 2020 18:08:45 GMT
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I believe the bore issues are due to the egr re-circulating debris from the catalyst, Ford re-called a number of Mondeo's to replace engines because of this. The jags seem to have suffered from the same. I think if you buy an engine with good bores they'll stay that way. From my limited sample size of 1, Jag may have fixed it with the CVVT engine introduction as the cvvt engine had spotless bores at almost 100k miles... The VVT will sit in its retarded state, opening at TDC if you just leave it as is. One possible concern with this is that on the VVT (Vs CVVT) engines the VVT is fed oil though the front cam bearing. With the VVT off, this bearing receives reduced oil flow - never heard of it causing an issue but maybe worth noting. The VVT can be activated with a single relay... It might be that you can get an output from there megajolt type system that just goes on over 1k rpm to trigger it? Those locost threads are an interesting read Thanks for you input , all info right now is interesting so will have a read of the links. Right now for me it's not about throwing loads of money at my project buying electronics of the shelf but gathering info and working out the lowest cost of using this engine. Emissions are not an issue so options are many, I have suitable carburettors sitting on the shelf so this is steering me in that direction but will have a read up and see which is the best way forward. Cheers.
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oilyt
Part of things
Posts: 169
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Jan 31, 2020 23:09:22 GMT
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Building aj30 myself for a project. I must be lucky as I have a 90k+ block that measures up to speck going back together(slowly) with forged internals ready for some boost. there's a few high hp nobles around for inspiration .:-)
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Building aj30 myself for a project. I must be lucky as I have a 90k+ block that measures up to speck going back together(slowly) with forged internals ready for some boost. there's a few high hp nobles around for inspiration .:-) Is going in a beetle? Should be fun.
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I have been reading the jag technical pdf and I can see the v6 inlet manifold is going to be a problem welding carburettor flanges to it but the v8 manifold looks more accommodating with maybe sectioning a piece off. Going to park that up for a while. I have found information that Mk 1 4cylinder Mondeo uses Ford EEC IV management system and racers use this ECU controlling ignition with an EDIS module and carbs. Any body know if the 2500 v6 uses EECIV? If so maybe I could use this and injection on the Jag engine. What do you think?
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I have been reading the jag technical pdf and I can see the v6 inlet manifold is going to be a problem welding carburettor flanges to it but the v8 manifold looks more accommodating with maybe sectioning a piece off. Going to park that up for a while. I have found information that Mk 1 4cylinder Mondeo uses Ford EEC IV management system and racers use this ECU controlling ignition with an EDIS module and carbs. Any body know if the 2500 v6 uses EECIV? If so maybe I could use this and injection on the Jag engine. What do you think? Should probably work if just controlling the sparks, might be in a default map if it can't see /adjust the injection side though? What type of racing are we talking about as there is a world of difference between field bangers and super saloons... Edit I see you're talking about using the injection as well, it can be made to work but not well.
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oilyt
Part of things
Posts: 169
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[/quote] Is going in a beetle? Should be fun. [/quote] Good guess lol.
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If you are ditching the Jaguar management, the best option would be to go for an Emerald K6 ecu. Pretty sure they have enough outputs to control all the VVT stuff on the AJ30 lump, and are easily tweaked/tuned to suit And getting it running with the standard sensors and an Emerald will be better/more driveable/easier to do than carbs ever will be on a modern engine designed with low emissions output from the start I think your suggestion is the easiest and best way forward. After looking at so many options and combinations I could end up with a hybrid monster.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jaguar S Type AJ 30 engineChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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I must have been lucky.
We had two Mondeo V6s as follows:
-2004 2.5 5 Speed Auto ; 1st engine got cooked ; bodged cooling system from previous owner. Second engine did 220k (281k the car had). -2005 3.0 6 Speed Manual. This engine was as clean as a whistle inside when we bought it. It still was when the car was written off at 262k.
Both went into 200k without issues. No knocking, nothing.
I did however, only use genuine Ford filters and always without fail changed the oil for the Ford spec 5W30 at 10,000 miles on the dot. Maybe I got lucky, but those miles weren't easy miles either.
It's against the grain of the above, but I do wonder if the engines just go bad due to poor maintenance or using cheap filters. As in previous threads, I've had Mann filters fall apart on me previously, which will stop me from using them again ; one fell apart on my Merc 250D on removal, a second had the metal cap stay in the block on my W108 ; it was a 6 month old filter for those wondering.
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Did yours use much oil Chas? Both our Mavericks have done, not a lot but if you didn't check it between services probably enough to knacker the bearings prematurely due to a lack of sufficient lubrication, running as hot as possible to keep the emissions down didn't do them any favours either, ours ran better when I played with the electric fan to cut in earlier.
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,188
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Jaguar S Type AJ 30 engineChasR
@chasr
Club Retro Rides Member 170
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Amazingly, no.
That said, the 3.0 did almost overheat on a couple of occasions when the fan controller died. At 220k, we put in a Kenlowe adjustable fan controller to work the fan at two speeds which did the job fine. In short, I was a little too light to pay Ford £500 for a new fan assembly!
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