1959 Land-Rover Series 2. Seating, and distractions…

[jamesd1972]

Sure you will get there, result that the new pump fits and works even if down on power a bit.
Brake is a PITA, the quality of some stuff like this sometimes from once reputable brands is shocking. Not like they are important or anything, slightly beyond me how in this litigious world such curse word is sold.
Ours is also in disgrace having found a hole in the rear crossmember. Practice with welder for the boy to patch up. 1/4 chassis would be better but don’t have the time at the moment.
Onwards
James

[ivanhoew]

excellent progress glenn

[blackpopracing]

Good to hear from you Glenn, even if it's not all good news.

[darrenh]

Foxing fox pictures

[kevins]

I Always find this sort of thing a pulls me in 2 directions, part of me wants it to be something simple and cheap like the timing and part doesn't want t have got it wrong.

When I had my series the drum brakes were by far the biggest headache, between trying to bleed them, leaks, never inspiring confidence they will pull up straight and the appalling quality even of supposed OEM parts I was glad the range rover I replaced it with had all round discs.

[glenanderson]

Right. 

Where were we?

Yesterday, close of play saw me ready to take off the timing cover. So, this morning, bright and early at about half ten (shift work ruins your body clock), I lifted the bonnet to be greeted by this:



The Discovery timing case setup holds the water pump, and has a water gallery running through the cover. To be honest, on something that’s supposed to be removed for periodic servicing it’s a stupid idea. However, although it’s a bit awkward, you can remove the cover without taking the pump off, which at least preserves the gasket and doesn’t disturb one joint. You just leave these three bolts in place:

[glenanderson]

Saves a bit of time and faff. 

Anyway, with the whole belt now on view, I could check the timing. 





And… 

Everything was bang on where it should be. 

I checked that TDC was actually TDC, which it was, then I stripped out the timing case on the ex- forkliftfred engine to compare the positions of key ways on the cam pulleys. All identical. And you can’t put them on the wrong way around or anything. 

So, the issue must be something else. 

And, despite my paranoia, I’d not made a mistake putting it together. 

Hmmmmm. 

Well, we’ve ascertained the original pump was definitely a problem, by the fact that this secondhand one idles and runs much smoother and turns off when it’s supposed to. However, Rob only got it running to manoeuvre it around to his workshop, and I have no idea how the old engine ran at all out on the road. So, maybe there’s an issue with this pump too?

The inside of the donor engine’s timing case was a disaster zone. Signs the cam and crank seals had been leaking, a very worn belt and tensioner and idler pulleys, and enough mud to plant potatoes… maybe there’s a clue here…?



Off to google I went…

Turns out there’s a bit of an Achilles heel on these pumps if you’re the kind of person that likes to take your engine underwater, as obviously the previous owner was wont to do. The pump has valve that increases fuelling relative to boost pressure, controlled by a diaphragm that’s activated by a feed from the pressure side of the manifold. When this diaphragm is pushed down by boost pressure, the displaced air under it simply vents to atmosphere through a small port. Not an issue in normal driving, but if you’re up to your armpits in water, when you back off, there’s nothing stopping it sucking water back into that cavity. That then causes either (or both) the diaphragm shaft or the governor pin to seize. 

The diaphragm lives under this cover. 



I whipped it off. A job only marginally hindered by the fact that some halfwit had put a screenwash bottle in the way. 

The diaphragm’s pin was moving ok, but the governor pin was well and truly stuck. Following some very well explained YouTube instructions I flooded the area with PlusGas and steadily worked away at freeing things off. Eventually, the governor pin moved enough to get the diaphragm out. You can get at the other end of the governor pin by undoing an access port under the throttle lever. This allowed me to work the pin steadily back and forth until it freed off. You can just see it poking out here:



With that freed off, and everything reassembled (I took the opportunity to rotate the diaphragm shaft to the point where it gives the most fuelling for the boost) it was time for a test drive to see how it went.  

I’m pleased to report that performance is significantly improved. There’s a bit more black smoke than I’m happy with, which is a result of me playing with the settings. I may revert back to where it was before, but I need to see it in daylight to decide properly. Whatever, we’re back in the game and I can now confidently say that I have definitely isolated the running issues to the supposedly reconditioned pump. I’ll get it wrapped up and off to Diesel Bob in Preston in the next few days. 😃👍

Tomorrow, when I get home from work, I’ll get on that leaky wheel cylinder. 

[ivanhoew]

we modified the one in my freinds discovery glenn , by fiddling with the boost bit in the pump ,and ran it at 27 psi ,or 30 psi boost on a cold day ,through a big peugot 607 intercooler i think it was ..... it would wheel spin all four tyres on a roundabout ,and ran like that for about 7 years before he sold it ... it never blew the head gasket or the turbo .

[glenanderson]

Sounds great fun Robert. I’ve heard of some really impressive power levels out of the Tdi. Sadly, I run the standard series 4-speed gearbox, and even the standard Tdi is nearly double what they’re designed for. Upping the power much is a recipe for spending most of my free time rebuilding and swapping gearboxes. 🤣

That said, third is the Achilles heel, so having enough power to pull fourth rather than change down is, counter-intuitively, actually kinder to the transmission. 😃

[ivanhoew]

out of curiosity , can one swap in the discovery tdi box and tranfer box and use that ?

[glenanderson]

Not without more surgery than I want to undertake.

The Discovery box won’t fit because the levers are all in the wrong place and the bellhousing too long. The engine would need to come forward about 8” and the gear lever would still be too far back. The same basic gearbox (LT77) in Defender specification can be made to fit, but requires chassis mods to get the handbrake and front prop to clear, custom props, modifications to make it part time 4wd (or modifications to the front axle to make it permanent 4wd) and modifications to the seat box and bulkhead to allow the use of later floors and gearbox tunnels, which in turn means a hotchpotch of cut and shut floor mats. Way too much time, money and effort for something that’s going to look like a dog’s breakfast if you’re not careful. LT77 gearboxes aren’t exactly renown for their durability either… and I’d lose two points towards its identity.

Don’t get me wrong, plenty of people have done the swap and are happy with it, but I just know that it’s not what I want to do. I also suspect that a lot of people that sing the praises of the later gearboxes only really do so because they don’t want to admit that they’ve spent time and money fitting something that’s not actually significantly better after all. Certainly, I’ve driven enough miles in a variety of later Land-Rovers to have a fairly well established opinion on the later boxes such that I wouldn’t choose to retrofit one. They’re better in some aspects, certainly, but don’t IMHO justify the aggro to fit into an elderly leaf sprung truck like mine.

[jonsey]

No errors on your part, and a cheap fix. That’s got to be a big win.

[xfu990]

Thanks for your informative post. I've learnt from that one, as I suspect many may have done, especially the sucking in of water!

Quite a relief to find out you haven't gone mad just yet and you're able to time the TDI up correctly

Keep up the excellent posts please

[75swb]

All the win! Great news.

[smart]

Great stuff as always in this thread

Question for Landrover fans, My 80's Series 3 SWB chassis is on its very last legs, its been repaired and repaired and now its beyond that really.

I'm not spending £2K + for a galvanised one. Does anyone know of a source of un galvanised or decent second hand? If i can get hold of something half decent then my mate is an excellent welder and with todays modern anti corrosive paints i should be able to get something to last for decades to come.

We were in the process of fitting a 300TDI engine until we found the head was cracked! Having a spare chassis would also really help with that project so I'm hoping to kill tow birds with one stone!

I appreciate even the roughest series is now worth a fortune and a £2k galavanised chassis would be long term answer etc, etc... but i just cant warrant it

[glenanderson]

It’s hard to find a secondhand chassis that isn’t either beyond sensible repair, or a godawful hotchpotch of other people’s bodgery. Be careful, as well, with the provenance/legality of a chassis swap.

All I can suggest is you keep your eyes peeled on the various forums and Facebook pages and see what comes up.

I know that £2K+ for a replacement chassis sounds like a lot, but even if you land a repairable replacement for free, by the time you’ve laid out for collection, parts, time and paint then you’ll be a long way into that. Your mate’s patience with you won’t be challenged either. 🤣

[blackpopracing]

If you do fit a new Galv chassis you need to advise DVLA of the new chassis & new chassis no.
They will note this on the V5C and you then retain the original identity of the vehicle.

If you use a s/hand chassis then your original reg is void as the car no longer exists (Identity of car is in the chassis & NOT the body) So you would need the V5C of the s/hand chassis so your car would take on that identity.

Thats the LEGAL way of doing things.

You could just use the s/hand chassis and keep quiet - but that's then classed as 'ringing' and Fraud in the eyes of the law - so Customs & excise come after you with £5,000 fine &/or up to 2 years in prison if caught.

This way you at least know what you are doing - the Galv chassis does not seen quite so expensive when you view it from the facts.

[glenanderson]

In the Land-Rover world, the new chassis will come un-numbered. The procedure is to transfer the number from the old one to the new, then destroy the old chassis. The DVLA don’t need notifying in this instance. The number is stamped on the right front spring hanger. Any secondhand chassis should come with a V5, those that don’t will likely have that spring hanger removed. Problems ensue when either the wrong number, an obliterated/tampered with one, or no number at all.

The waters are murky. Secondhand chassis come on the market for a number of reasons. Failed projects and legitimate breaking, yes, but also from stolen/broken and “ringed” vehicles. Be careful, and don’t get caught out.

[kevins]

In reality if you fit a new rear half chassis front 1/4 chassis and new outriggers there's not much else left to fix and the repair is totally legit.

[darrenh]

i had just come on here to say "wind the boost up"

but on reading, thats basically whats happened

glad its sorted and performance is back

now the obvious cure to your black smoke, is more air, so time the wind the boost up