cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,580
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Aug 30, 2020 19:15:29 GMT
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Just thinking, when is it time to learn to weld vs paying someone to do it properly. I've noticed my Escort has started to split down on the inner wings so, 2 new inner wing panels (where it meets the outer wing isnt great) and also some welding to the floor behind the drivers seat are on the horizon. I'm thinking the inner wings might be a lot to weld as a beginner to get things to line up?? and i know that you wouldn't want to practice straight on your pride and joy!! so practicing would be in order before. With the way the world is with Covid could this be a good idea or a bad one? Being down in London now i'm going to struggle to afford someone to do these repairs down here (guessing upwards of £500?). I know welding will always be a thing with old Cars but, I just don't know if its a cost effective way right now? Also, I'd be doing this on my drive way so I worry about neighbours etc getting arc eye looking out at whats going on. Maybe I could find a better place to do it. What kind of cost would someone be looking at to get a basic welding set up? for this kind of job i'm guess: -welder -mask -gloves -some sort of fire retardant clothing? -two panels -gas -wire listing all that sounds way more than my £500 guesstimate for welding both panels but, I just don't know. Any experience/advice would be great! Heres a couple of pics of the offending rot.
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ferny
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 981
Club RR Member Number: 13
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Aug 30, 2020 19:42:30 GMT
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I'm not going to say I'm a great welder. I taught myself and took a course years later in the hope of having my "get around" techniques taught out if me. Turns out I was doing it right all along. But I still cock up and I still try to weld stuff which shouldn't be welded, with mixed results. Basically, I'm too impatient for bodywork sometimes.
What is great is having no issues with making brackets or knocking something up quickly because I can use the hot glue gun. Yesterday I welded together two supermarket kegs to an old incinerator with metal so thin and rusty you could read a newspaper through it. Two weeks ago I was repairing the herald b-post and replacing the chassis. Next week I'll be welding the TR6. Having a welder to hand and using it within minutes of a silly idea is great.
Your welding looks complicated. I suspect there is more rot there than you realise. I'd attack it and investigate with the expectation of it being too much to do at home for someone new. And at the same time research welders and gear. Unless you're extremely lucky and have a friend who can teach and guide you on your car. If you do, ask them. But also say you'll reimburse them for their time. We all have friends who expect loads of "simple welding jobs" like BBQ's when they know we have a welder. The requests get tiresome.
Your driveway welding won't hurt the public. The grinding before and after will. But, that thought never stopped anyone having a patio installed by a workman with a 9" grinder.
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Last Edit: Aug 30, 2020 19:45:00 GMT by ferny
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Aug 30, 2020 20:14:01 GMT
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Agree with everything in the above post. I’ve been welding for about 25 years, and still curse at car bodywork repairs. It can be slow, frustrating work. From your pictures I expect to be chasing rust for a long way to find decent metal to weld to. You also need to add to your list stuff to cut and shape steel to make repair sections. If you have time to learn, ideally with someone to guide you, then I’d suggest that is the best approach, as it’s a valuable skill, otherwise get some quotes to have yours repaired by someone- however I expect you’ll need to add a ‘1’ in front of your estimate!
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Aug 30, 2020 20:26:51 GMT
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I don't know if it is anything Dez might be interested in but isn't he in Essex somewhere so not a million miles from London. Otherwise I know someone in South London who's welding is certainly strong but functional rather than artwork if you know what I mean?
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Last Edit: Aug 31, 2020 17:44:38 GMT by dodgerover
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,580
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Aug 30, 2020 20:31:24 GMT
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Cheers for the advice all. I guessed as much but its something i'd like to get stuck into at some point. Might not be quite the right time by the sounds of things. I was thinking cutting off the outer wings then, then inner wings to weld new panels in might be a nightmare to start off with let alone lining them up to weld to. re fee, I said £500 as I usually get my repairs done up north by a small classic body work shop. I had cills, valence and arches done for £1500 once so guessed maybe around the £500 if I supply the panels, could be way off though. Went to call in the garage when I was there last week for a quote but, they were shut I'm guessing due to covid.
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Last Edit: Aug 30, 2020 20:32:48 GMT by cjhillman
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fogey
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,590
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Aug 30, 2020 20:32:30 GMT
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Buying a MIG welder many years ago was one of the best investments I've ever made and I would recommend anyone into old cars to do the same - in the long run it just has to be cost effective. HOWEVER - attempting to replace a complete inner wing panel as in your pics is NOT the best place to start.. . . . This site is well worth a visit: www.mig-welding.co.uk
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Last Edit: Aug 30, 2020 20:34:22 GMT by fogey
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,580
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Aug 30, 2020 20:38:12 GMT
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Buying a MIG welder many years ago was one of the best investments I've ever made and I would recommend anyone into old cars to do the same - in the long run it just has to be cost effective. HOWEVER - attempting to replace a complete inner wing panel as in your pics is NOT the best place to start.. . . . This site is well worth a visit: www.mig-welding.co.ukDid you buy an expensive one or second hand one? what about the PPE too? will check the site out
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Aug 30, 2020 21:00:52 GMT
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Buying a MIG welder many years ago was one of the best investments I've ever made and I would recommend anyone into old cars to do the same - in the long run it just has to be cost effective. HOWEVER - attempting to replace a complete inner wing panel as in your pics is NOT the best place to start.. . . . This site is well worth a visit: www.mig-welding.co.ukDid you buy an expensive one or second hand one? what about the PPE too? will check the site out I have both an old-skool transformer Sealey MIG and a modern IGBT R-Tech 130. Both have their place, but for thin bodywork the R-Tech is great, as it’s far more granular to adjust, compact and lightweight. I’m restoring a Jaguar XKR rustbucket currently and the R-Tech has been a good asset for that task. I’ve been using my old Sealey 230A machine today on full whack welding up some heavy duty steel sections making a frame to move a complete building.... long story, will create a thread eventually. ArgonShield gas from BOC is the key for decent welds from both.
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Aug 30, 2020 21:27:37 GMT
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Yep, similar to others welding is probably the most valuable single skill I've learn so far. I've lost count of the amount of times it's come in useful. Everything from fixing rusty cars, to custom fab for brackets, to repairing tools and machinery, to making tools themselves (screw log splitter), to making presents for my mum (horseshoe wine rack) and girlfriend (metal sunflower).
Takes a while to get the knack, but I can stick most things together convincingly now.
Thin body panels can be tricky to control the heat when welding. I tend to weld them in a very different way to doing bracketry out of thicker steel. Rather than trying to lay a bead down I tend to do it tack after tack, doing a ring of them around the outside 1" apart and then going round and around filling in the gaps between them one tack at a time.
Also, it's a very good idea to get the area meticulously clean. All that underseal/seam sealer gunk will play havoc with any welding and cause it to spatter everywhere.
As for equipment, a welder is obvious as is gas and wire. Masks are a lot more affordable nowadays. Gloves are a luxury I rarely use. I've got a pair, but find they mess with my dexterity too much to be useful. Just remember not to grab the hot bit after you've welded! I wouldn't worry about fire retardant clothing either. Just old clothes you don't mind getting little holes burnt in them.
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Last Edit: Aug 30, 2020 21:30:58 GMT by biturbo228
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,882
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Aug 31, 2020 10:14:21 GMT
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Definitely worth learning to weld if you want to run older cars
I got taught to weld at college (gas arc Mig & Tig) when I bought my first welder I wondered why a skill I thought I had learnt was seemingly lost in 20 years!!!!
Don't make the mistake of buying a cheap "box mover" welder (I did this and nothing is more frustrating than trying to weld with substandard equipment) - buy a second hand one in a make/brand that has positive feedback on the migwelding site and if you want to accelerate your learning post up pictures of your welding on there too - really friendly site and you'll get very good advice on there that will help you improve quickly provided you are prepared to listen
Before you do anything on your car
Get some 3 or 4mm angle or plate to start with - easier to weld thicker stuff (unlikely to blow holes in it which is the biggest issue with starting on thin stuff) and understand the welder settings Amps, wire speed, torch speed and gas coverage to get the sizzle (plus decent penetration)
Get some scrap panels from a breaker and cut them up and then practice at the lower end of the welder capability
Keep practising until you are happy with being able to weld from above, on vertical panels and from underneath (bloody difficult and frequently painful)
You can always buy something more expensive later (when you have all the PPE already) if you enjoy welding and want to improve your skills with better equipment (which makes a difference)
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bstardchild
Club Retro Rides Member
Posts: 14,882
Club RR Member Number: 71
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Aug 31, 2020 10:28:32 GMT
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There is of course always one downside of learning to weld and having the kit to do it See this thread for a little bit of help I gave a mate to fix a Capri forum.retro-rides.org/thread/187492/weekend-spring-edition?page=2I had a vested interest in making sure the seat mounts were good and solid as I was going to the Le Mans Classic as a passenger in the car later that year
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Aug 31, 2020 12:13:00 GMT
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Just thinking, when is it time to learn to weld vs paying someone to do it properly. NOW! Not done it for a while now, but sticking metal is enormously satisfying.
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Danny
Part of things
On your screen
Posts: 837
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Aug 31, 2020 13:04:36 GMT
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When I worked in mot garage back in 93 we had many cars and vans that were in need of some welding so decided to buy a super Mig 160 that I’ve been using ever since including a few days ago plus an account with BOC Gas for the Argoshield light gas It was one of the best investments I’ve made and pretty much self-taught over the years to a point where I still do the odd day here and there for garages to weld up the old stuff. Just practice on old mild steel of different thickness and take your time, get a feel for the welder and the materials. Take a look on youtube where you will find lots of useful videos and tips.
As for your photos get rid of all te rust and paint around the crack and see what you are left with as 9 times out of 10 it’s a lot worse than first expected, got to find the clean stuff for you to fabricate a plate, I always make one from carboard first to get the exact shape and profile.
Good luck
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Last Edit: Aug 31, 2020 13:08:18 GMT by Danny
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Aug 31, 2020 13:15:59 GMT
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Aug 31, 2020 13:25:26 GMT
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I've got a clarke transformer welder which must be 35 years old now. For most car stuff I end up doing a series of short pulses, the results are strong if not the preetiest welds. I've also got a cheap TIG but rarely use it (only really for alloy), I haven't had argon for it for 2 years. For gas BOC isn't really ideal for the occasionsal welder, their monthly rental can work out expensive, companies like hobbyweld and Adams offer outright cylinder purchase which you just pay to re-fill. (Which is a bit dearer than BOC).
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cjhillman
Posted a lot
1979 Capri (Rolling Project) 1985 Escort mk3 (Daily)
Posts: 1,580
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Aug 31, 2020 13:54:57 GMT
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This is all great advice! Thanks!! I’ll definitely check out the welding forum and keep and eye out for something. I can see myself always having an old car at some stage so definitely useful! Also , like people say , just for making things too.
I’ll check out the Capri thread. I have one myself and I can imagine starting to poke holes in that would be a never ending task 😂
One other question is can you run a welder off a house plug or is it going to trip everything out ? If I was welding out front we only have a 13amp by the front door. I know some of these say for full usage a 16amp would be needed . Looking around online I’d probably buy a Clark welder or something and get practicing on some old car parts
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Aug 31, 2020 14:26:02 GMT
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I run MIG, TIG and stick welders all off 13 amp with no problems. My plugs all have a copper rivet in instead of a fuse though. When you are looking for a second hand welder, I would recommend a gas/no gas one. Not everyone is a fan of the no gas way, but if you are outside it is the better option. Put some kind of screen up if you are worried about blinding the neighbours.
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Danny
Part of things
On your screen
Posts: 837
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Aug 31, 2020 16:38:43 GMT
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I have a personal account with BOC that’s about £50 a year for the rental of the size Y bottle, still a lot of money unless you can do one job to cover the cost. I use a stick welder aswell but rather the Mig and gas.
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Danny
Part of things
On your screen
Posts: 837
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Aug 31, 2020 16:42:34 GMT
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Keep us updated with yopur repair and one other thing to remember is some people just make the surface look good but not the untreated welds underneath so if you can try to prime and paint/underseal 👍
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Aug 31, 2020 19:27:45 GMT
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I’ve always struggled with this quandary... I took a bodywork course 10+ years ago where we did gas and then mig welding.. it was good, but there always seemed to be a massive difference between doing it in a nice big workshop vs outside driveway staring at a bit of car you don’t really know how to fix! I’ve never been able to bridge that gap personally...
Ideally I needed to try it out on something I didn’t care about...and that was never going to be the Capri!
Bit like the first time I wet sanded scratches out of paintwork...it was on stuff I couldn’t make any worse 😂
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