DVLA fix date on black & white number plates to pre-1980

[TessierAshpool]

I've seen this reported in the last few days from a couple of car clubs:

www.fbhvc.co.uk/news/article/changes-to-black-silver-number-plates-from-01012021

In short, they are to close the loophole where a vehicle when it is classed as Historic (40 year rolling) can then change to B&W plates. The date for the plates will be fixed to the end of 1979, although the Historic class will continue to roll on.

I can kind of see the rationale for this, the last couple of years B&W plates have been ending up on 70s vehicles that would never have been allowed them when new, and to my mind putting B&W plates on 80s vehicles would be just weird.

They are also removing the ability for people to make Euro sticker plates when this comes in on 1st Jan, so I guess fixing the B&W loophole was one of those "while you're in there could you just..." jobs

(Edited to use more definitive link, thanks Darkspeed ).

[Darkspeed]

The FED is the best place for any legislative info where you want to cut through all the dross and hearsay.

www.fbhvc.co.uk/news

[TessierAshpool]

Thanks, original post fixed with better link from the fed.

[ChasR]

Annoying to see it implemented but then again, oddly, I do disagree with it, given that some owners see it as an individual statement. I generally however like to see period correct plates on a car, but I must be going soft on the B&Ws!

From what I've seen, B&W plates were slowing down production in the late '60s, where the new style of plate came out. People would change their plates to this 'newer' style.

I fitted Old Charles Wright font plates onto my Carina, and the next owner fitted Black and Silvers.

Technically my Merc might have come with White and Yellow plates



Only busses seemed to have the B&W plates fitted after this time.

Where is Little Pixel's thread when you need the evidence? That was the thread of legends.

In the meantime, let's have some shots showing a mixture of plates .

[Dez]

So have they just accidentally made blumels/hills style plates illegal?

Additionally, different shades of black lettering that create a 3D effect or highlighting will no longer be allowed. The letters and numbers will have to be only a single shade of black. Raised lettering for 3D and 4D effects will also be banned. The DVLA says,

“The agency has not seen any evidence to show that number plates displaying raised plastic, acrylic or Perspex lettering (3D/4D plates) are able to meet the requirements of either the current or new the British Standard.”

[TessierAshpool]

For black-on-yellow I'd imagine so, for white-on-black who knows. Their quote mentions the current and upcoming standards, but B&W plates would pre-date those standards anyway, as would the Bluemels yellows from the 70s.

The current fad for straight-cut 3D black plastic letters on yellow plates looks cheap and nasty anyway to me (what they call 4D plates).

[rattlecan]

What’s a blumels then?
But regarding the b&w plates, seems like a bit of a win, if you will. Basically they were previously only legal up to 73, now they will be legal up to 80. What’s wrong with that?

[mk2cossie]

Dec 13, 2020 11:20:54 GMT Dez said:

So have they just accidentally made blumels/hills style plates illegal?

Additionally, different shades of black lettering that create a 3D effect or highlighting will no longer be allowed. The letters and numbers will have to be only a single shade of black. Raised lettering for 3D and 4D effects will also be banned. The DVLA says,

“The agency has not seen any evidence to show that number plates displaying raised plastic, acrylic or Perspex lettering (3D/4D plates) are able to meet the requirements of either the current or new the British Standard.”

Oh the joy!
There is a customer at work who thinks his plates are currently legal. (They arent) with that snippet they will definitely be illegal

So will that apply retrospectively to white and yellows with grey shading for 3D effect?

[Paul H]

In some ways, this is about time. Loads of '70 stuff that currently has black background plates would not have had them when new. By the early '70s, those plates were considered old fashioned, and the black letter type were being used predominantly. A pre-1980 cut-off is actually very lenient in terms of the actual usuage - the previous pre 1973 rule seemed to reflect the reality.

From what I understand though, most '70s stuff could well have still been raised letters even with the white & yellow backgrounds - e.g. Chasr's Mercedes & Toyota. Regarding dates, the Mercedes seems to be in the transition time, so looks right with either black or white / yellow backgrounds, but that Toyota looks wrong with the earlier black type plates.

I suspect that the reason behind all this is because ANPR can't easily read the black background plates. I don't know about the Fed's ANPR, but civilian ANPR certainly couldn't read it when I still lived in London over 7 years ago. I found this out regularly with the ANPR entry system where I worked (it couldn't read the plates on my then boss's Aston DB4 or E Type either), and also in the local supermarket carpark. The latter used ANPR to run the 2 hrs free parking, and had a screen that would display each numberplate as you entered, and remind you when your free parking would expire. It would display the plates of cars ahead of me, and the ones behind, but not my Amazon.

However, weren't raised letter plates (whether separate or pressed) in the correct black letters & white yellow backgrounds still used in the 1980s? I have always understood our system to be one of the few which did not backdate regs, especially as far as numberplates are concerned (e.g. a car can display the correct style to its age as the plate rather than having to update them (as happens in many other countries). If so, then this part of the changes, and what I gather is the insistance on the new narrow font for all white & yellow plates (as opposed to the earlier, wider typeface) is just wrong.

[colnerov]

Dec 13, 2020 13:41:40 GMT rattlecan said:

What’s a blumels then?
But regarding the b&w plates, seems like a bit of a win, if you will. Basically they were previously only legal up to 73, now they will be legal up to 80. What’s wrong with that?

Hi, There's nothing wrong with that because it's clearly defined legally, although it was before at '73. The just need to enforce it like they did at first before but they got a bit lackadaisical over it and the great unwashed didn't think it was important any more.

Colin

[rattlecan]

Dec 13, 2020 14:17:52 GMT colnerov said:

Dec 13, 2020 13:41:40 GMT rattlecan said:

What’s a blumels then?
But regarding the b&w plates, seems like a bit of a win, if you will. Basically they were previously only legal up to 73, now they will be legal up to 80. What’s wrong with that?

Hi, There's nothing wrong with that because it's clearly defined legally, although it was before at '73. The just need to enforce it like they did at first before but they got a bit lackadaisical over it and the great unwashed didn't think it was important any more.

Colin

Well it’s not important is it really? No one is going to die if someone puts a b&w plate on a new car are they?

[Paul H]

Dec 13, 2020 14:38:21 GMT rattlecan said:

Well it’s not important is it really? No one is going to die if someone puts a b&w plate on a new car are they?

The issue is that ANPR cannot read it easily (if at all), so it makes it much more difficult to trace the vehicle. However, I imagine that those who are committing premeditated offences would just have false plates rather than make the car stand out with the wrong plates.

[colnerov]

Dec 13, 2020 14:38:21 GMT rattlecan said:

Dec 13, 2020 14:17:52 GMT colnerov said:

Hi, There's nothing wrong with that because it's clearly defined legally, although it was before at '73. The just need to enforce it like they did at first before but they got a bit lackadaisical over it and the great unwashed didn't think it was important any more.

Colin

Well it’s not important is it really? No one is going to die if someone puts a b&w plate on a new car are they?

Q.E.D.

[Clamity]

I remember it being really rare to see B&W plates on the road in the very early 80s. If you did it would often be on something that had been dumped.

My folks cars had the plastic letters riveted onto a yellow/white metal back all the way from K (72) up to V (80) reg and probably earlier that that. Mum's A reg Maestro had the flat plastic ones we still have today.

It seems in the 60s the law wasn't too fussed about how number plates looked. In old photos a few of my Dad's cars appear to have the numbers just stuck onto the bodywork.

[rattlecan]

Dec 13, 2020 14:54:53 GMT Paul H said:

Dec 13, 2020 14:38:21 GMT rattlecan said:

Well it’s not important is it really? No one is going to die if someone puts a b&w plate on a new car are they?

The issue is that ANPR cannot read it easily (if at all), so it makes it much more difficult to trace the vehicle. However, I imagine that those who are committing premeditated offences would just have false plates rather than make the car stand out with the wrong plates.

Not sure that’s correct. My brother was a copper, traffic for most of his career. He reckons they’d pull up for their break at a services in their designated ‘pig pen’. He says there would be something like a lorry trailer parked sideways on with something written on the side. For example Norbert Dentressangle. He says you’d come back to the car 30 mins later & the ANPR would have literally thousands of numbers listed on the screen, as it would make as many combinations of the letters as it could & that’s a curtain on the side of a truck!

[carledo]

I think that, as always, there will be people wingeing, people obeying the rules, people pushing the boundaries and people taking the mickey.

All 4 of my current retros fall into the time period of 72-80 and all 4 carry the yellow/white plates of a design appropriate to their period, the 2 earlier cars have rivetted black digits and the 2 later ones have laminated plates. As a matter of personal preference, I wouldn't put black plates on ANY of them as they never carried them when new, to me it looks plain WRONG. It's my one concession to originality!

They've said they won't make retrofit of the new standard plates mandatory, merely that any new plates supplied will have to conform to the updated standard. So theoretically if you bust one of your old style plates or it becomes illegible (laminated plates are great for this, pressed ali ones, not so much) you'd have to go with the flow. In practice, there is a huge aftermarket in "show plates" which can be had to mimic any style from any time period. If you want a period correct set of plates for your classic, it will be hard to tell what is original and what is a modern repro of the SAME thing. I doubt very much if the boys in blue will pay that much attention to the STYLE of plate on a classic unless it flouts legality some other way.

As to the ANPR thing, I think it's not so much the colour of the plate that makes them unreadable to ANPR as the different ways of combining letters and figures gives the computer too much leeway to make it up. All classics have variations on the 3 number 3 letter, 4 number 2 letter or 3 letter 3 number 1 letter styles. Whereas the bulk of cars on the road have either 1 letter 3 number 3 letter or the newer 2 letter 2 number 3 letter styles and this is what ANPR is programmed to look for, if it doesn't see it, it throws a wobbler.

Steve

Picture for penance of the Carledo wearing it's ORIGINAL pressed ali plate with rivetted black digits!

[bmcnut]

I thought black/white plates were only legal on pre 73 cars, to me they look wrong on anything they 'shouldnt' be on, in the same way that a pre73 car with reflective plates looks wrong. Making black/white plates legal on a 1979 car doesnt make them look any more right to me.

However, thats sort of the pot calling the kettle black, because I put black/silver on my MG Maestro. Not legal, but I though they looked good for show purposes only. That what I told Mr plod when He pulled me over anyway. Luckily I was telling the truth and was on the way home from a show and I had the proper plates in the boot of the car.



Ive also had some old pressed plates on the Cube, but not on the road, only for fun


But, the Cube does wear new reflective pressed plates, it needed new plates and the pressed ones were cheaper at the time, and as far as I knew they were legal. As I understand it, do I now need to get some normal plates?

[rattlecan]

Dec 13, 2020 20:27:57 GMT bmcnut said:

I thought black/white plates were only legal on pre 73 cars, to me they look wrong on anything they 'shouldnt' be on, in the same way that a pre73 car with reflective plates looks wrong. Making black/white plates legal on a 1979 car doesnt make them look any more right to me.

However, thats sort of the pot calling the kettle black, because I put black/silver on my MG Maestro. Not legal, but I though they looked good for show purposes only. That what I told Mr plod when He pulled me over anyway. Luckily I was telling the truth and was on the way home from a show and I had the proper plates in the boot of the car.



Ive also had some old pressed plates on the Cube, but not on the road, only for fun


But, the Cube does wear new reflective pressed plates, it needed new plates and the pressed ones were cheaper at the time, and as far as I knew they were legal. As I understand it, do I now need to get some normal plates?

How does that work then? They look ‘wrong on anything they shouldn’t be on’ but great for shows? I’m confused!

[bmcnut]

Dec 13, 2020 20:33:25 GMT rattlecan said:

Dec 13, 2020 20:27:57 GMT bmcnut said:

I thought black/white plates were only legal on pre 73 cars, to me they look wrong on anything they 'shouldnt' be on, in the same way that a pre73 car with reflective plates looks wrong. Making black/white plates legal on a 1979 car doesnt make them look any more right to me.

However, thats sort of the pot calling the kettle black, because I put black/silver on my MG Maestro. Not legal, but I though they looked good for show purposes only. That what I told Mr plod when He pulled me over anyway. Luckily I was telling the truth and was on the way home from a show and I had the proper plates in the boot of the car.



Ive also had some old pressed plates on the Cube, but not on the road, only for fun


But, the Cube does wear new reflective pressed plates, it needed new plates and the pressed ones were cheaper at the time, and as far as I knew they were legal. As I understand it, do I now need to get some normal plates?

How does that work then? They look ‘wrong on anything they shouldn’t be on’ but great for shows? I’m confused!

I know, me too. I think what I meant is a standard car with the wrong plate looks odd, but a modded car with modded plates looks ok? I think. Probably just easier for me to say that its like the pot calling the kettle black or something.

[accord83]

Both original plates, and staying that way.