Starter motor not turning - fixed, but no fuel at the carbs

[Paul H]

Tried to start my Amazon this afternoon, but it's refusing to play ball. To be fair, it hasn't run for nearly a year, but this is most un Volvo like behaviour...

The battery is fully charged, but the starter won't turn at all - the only thing I get is a click as I turn the key. I've checked that the engine isn't siezed and it turns easily by hand with the plugs out, but it got dark before I had the chance to investigate any further.

As far as I know, there seem to be the following possibile causes:

1) starter motor itself
2) starter solenoid
3) engine earth strap

However, is there anything else I should be looking at? Also, whilst the earth strap is easy to check, is there an easy way to confirm whether the fault is just the solenoid, or the starter itself?

[stealthstylz]

Have you tried giving it a few taps with a hammer?

[Paul H]

Not yet. I've tried rocking the car in gear but not hitting it, in case it was stuck but that made no difference. Apparently these Bosch starters don't respond well to that method hence I haven't tried it yet but I'm still trying to find where it was I read that...

[ferny]

I've had starters struggle in the past. If it's easy to get out, take a look at the brushes. You might find they're stuck and if so they're an easy cheap fix.

[comfortablynumb]

As said my first port of call is earths and tight power leads, then pull it off and bench test

[petervdv]

It could be that there also is a starter motor relais fitted which powers the solenoid on the startermotor. It is a normal relais.
You could take a loose wire. Connect it on 1 side to the battery and on the other side to the connection on the solenoid. If nothing happens it is the starter being not oke. If the starter turns then there is a problem in the wiring, the ignition lock or the startermotor relais (if fitted)
Good luck
Peter

[Paul H]

Don't think there is a relay in the starter circuit, but I will check the wiring schematics. From memory, I think the only factory fitted relays are for the reverse lights, overdrive & main beam flash (there's also now a secondary relay board, but that's for upgrades & additions like front / rear fogs & a HRW rather than for existing systems).

There is a distinct 'click' on turning the key, and also the rest of the car's electrical system goes live when the ignition is on.

Thank you all for the thoughts & suggestions. Dry weather permitting, I will be investigating further tomorrow.

[tineca]

If you put it in 4th and try and roll it a bit more that might help. You could do with a helper to tap the starter whilst you turn the key if rolling in 4th doesn't work. This cold weather won't be helping.

[Paul H]

No luck with the earths - it's still not turning over. However a replacement starter motor arrived this afternoon, for £18 delivered courtesy of a breakers / salvage yard on ebay. It's described as working and is from an accident write-off that they are parting out. I'm hoping to have time to bench test it tomorrow (just to double check first!), prior to then fitting at the weekend.

[Paul H]

One step forwards, one step back....

Finally had the chance to bench test the 'new' motor earlier today, and it checked out ok, including the level of voltage drop when activated - I'm not strong on electrickery, but youtube is extremely helpful with such dark arts.

Extracting the old one and fitting the replacement was not so fun, due to how the old heap is parked up right against a fence.



Fortunately the last time I moved it I had pumped up all the tyres, so was able to roll it into a slightly less awkward position. As it was, I had to rely on the decent ground clearance (designed for Swedish dirt roads...) to give access to the lower bolt on the starter (access to which meant that the clutch slave had to come off first).

At which point, the usual swearing and cursing as I couldn’t see what I was doing so was relying entirely on feel.



Once off , I decided to quickly bench test the old one just to double check. Clamped down on the workmate, battery connected with jump leads, and let’s see what happens once the solenoid is energised. Err... sparks when contact made, the spur gear fired out to where the flywheel would be, but doesn’t spin. Oh, and there’s also smoke getting out. Useful. To be fair, it may well be the original (certainly the correct type), and even if not, I’m pretty sure it has not been changed in my ownership (so that’s 19 years and about 90K miles), let alone what it had done already. Not bad Mr Bosch.

Installing the replacement was the was the usual reversal of disassembly but swearing in different places, usually because I’d dropped a spanner or the socket had come unclipped from the ratchet handle again...



This is actually a far better view than I had!

And so, once fitted, it was time to reconnect up all the wiring, refit the battery, and turn the key.

Yay – the starter is turning over. There's oil pressure too, and the engine is spinning nicely. But not firing. Not even a hint. Checking the fuel filter by the rocker cover, shows there's no go juice coming through... But I'd put five litres in the other week prior to finding out that it wouldn't turn. Ok, perhaps it just needs longer to pump fuel up to the carbs... still no fuel. In goes another five litres. Rather than being close to empty on the gauge, it now reads full. Well that's BS... (adds to the snag list, along with the dash lights & front fogs). Keep cranking over, but the filter is still dry. After a while, the battery starts to show signs of loosing charge (it was last charged back in the summer) so that’s it for the day.

Wondering if perhaps priming the system may get it going but the fuel can is now empty. By this stage, it was getting too dark, but the next port of call is the mechanical fuel pump. I may just fill the float chambers, or perhaps run a gravity feed to the carbs to start with just to get it going. But that’s for next weekend.

In the meantime, the battery is back in the kitchen to be recharged ready for the next round. I think that every respectable kitchen should have a car battery in there, but Mrs H isn't so convinced.

[shin2chin]

If its been stood a while there may be crud in the fuel lines or bottom of the tank. Take a fuel hose off in the engine bay and give it a good blow (mouth or compressor) reconnect and spin it over to see if theres any fuel coming through.

Does this have an electric of mechanical fuel pump? If electric can you hear it? Is the fuse and relay OK? Do you have 12v at it?

If it's mechanical pop the inlet hose into a Jerry can and see if it pumps when spun over.

As you said give the carb a squirt of fuel or easy start/break cleaner and you may be in business

[bugjam1999]

I think it’s a mechanical fuel pump on an Amazon? They don’t do much when the engine is being spun relatively slowly on the starter- in normal use the engine will fire on the fuel in the float bowl and then at idle the engine is spinning fast enough to work the pump fast enough to supply the engine with fuel. Your carb is likely to be completely dry if the car has been sitting that long.

Either pull the fuel inlet hose off the carb and fill the float bowl with fuel with a syringe then replace the hose and try again

Or

Spray something flammable into the air box whilst someone else turns the car over- brake cleaner is good for this.

Cheers

[Paul H]

Thanks chaps, and yup, it's a mechanical pump. OEM would be a Pierburg, but not sure if this is still an OEM one.

Agree that the twin SUs are almost certainly dry, but didn't have time to get the air box off to access the float chambers to check. Despite the lockdown, I'm still working my normal full teaching timetable on Zoom (I hate being stuck at a computer screen - much rather be in the workshops...) so don't have any daylight hours during the week to investigate. However at the weekend I will top up the float chambers and also probably the engine bay end of the fuel line to see if that gets it going. I really don't want to have to spend the £60 to £70 for a new pump...

I need to get it running by early Feb at the latest, so I can shift it out of the way for the builders to have access to the back of the house (I can't just push it out as there's an uphill slope right outside the doors it is parked behind).

[colnerov]

Hi, It's because the fuel pump and carbs are dry, try putting one of the primer bulbs in line before or after the pump it doesn't matter. To get the fuel up into the carbs, leave it in place until it starts without its use and is a reliable starter.

www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=inline+primer+bulb&_sacat=0

Colin

[Paul H]

Ah - can't believe I forgot about those (am already familiar with them from outboard motors...). I must admit that at the time I was annoyed not to find a priming lever under the pump (the earlier, glass topped ones do have one). After the pump is probably easier as there's only a short length of line from the steel pipe to the pump.

Alternatively, if all else fails, it would also be a much less messy way of connecting up a petrol can to the carbs too...

[bugjam1999]

No need to overthink it- can of brake cleaner held in one hand- spray it into the inlet whilst someone cranks the engine, then with your other hand on the throttle linkage open/close the throttle and keep the engine running when it fires.

Cheers

[Paul H]

I used the priming bulb (which had arrived earlier today), to get the fuel flowing, but it still failed to fire. However, a quick check of the float chambers showed that they were still bone dry, and inspecting the needle valves in the lids revealed that they were stuck. Once those were freed off, the float chambers filled with fuel and the lids refitted, the engine then finally started...



Running a bit rough at first, I'm guessing due to the carbs being a bit gummed up (Volvo B20s are not the smoothest engines anyway!), but it cleared as it warmed up.  The fuel pump appears to be working fine too, which is a relief as I don't want to spend any more time or money on it right now.

Possibly tomorrow or if not, at the weekend, I hope to clear all the stuff that is stored between it and the gates so I can then drive it out to the front of the house & back again. It won't be going back on the road for a while yet, but now having it mobile going to be very useful!

[jamesd1972]

Modern fuel with ethanol in it is a curse word for gumming up. One thing I've been advised for chainsaws and other garden stuff that dosn't get used all the time is to let it run dry and/or to use super-plus unleaded as this often has much less ethanol in it.

Glad its alive, best keep it running now !

James

[Paul H]

Jan 13, 2021 13:12:23 GMT bugjam1999 said:

No need to overthink it- can of brake cleaner held in one hand- spray it into the inlet whilst someone cranks the engine, then with your other hand on the throttle linkage open/close the throttle and keep the engine running when it fires.

Cheers

Able assistants not usually available sadly. I needed one of those primer pumps anyway for an outboard (see third thread in my sig).

Jan 14, 2021 20:30:30 GMT jamesd1972 said:

Modern fuel with ethanol in it is a curse word for gumming up. One thing I've been advised for chainsaws and other garden stuff that dosn't get used all the time is to let it run dry and/or to use super-plus unleaded as this often has much less ethanol in it.

Glad its alive, best keep it running now !

James

Not sure anywhere round here has super unleaded.  Oh, the plan is very much to keep it running now, so hopefully that will solve the problem!  That it wasn't happened unintentionally & unless I take the engine out to tidy up the engine bay, the intention is to keep it mobile as then I can keep all systems operational. A few other faults elsewhere have cropped up, so those need sorting too...

Given the speed it now spins over at on the starter, I think the old starter had been slowly dying for a while even before it was taken off the road - at the time, I had put it down to the battery being weak due to age, but it seems to be fine (its integral condition indicator light certainly claims so).

[yankee44mike]

Great read,, Ill try some of you solutions on my 85 TVR (not starting
alto it fuel injected . break cleaner applied by squirt can and air compressor backwards thru the system.

Cheers YM