schutz vs waxoyl

[twincammy]

its been a while since i've undersealed a vehicle, last time i did it was about 15yrs ago and i used waxoyl, but having just imported a new van from Japan, its that time again.

modern concencus seems to be pointing towards schutz or similar, and what i was wondering was how do they compare consistence wise? reason I'm asking is, i bought the waxoyl pump/applicator which worked fine and i still own. just wondering if its suitable for the schutz or if its too thick for the nozzle? do you even heat the schutz similar to waxoyl?

random pic for your trouble, *doffs cap**

[slater]

Most people will pop up and scream dinitrol or bilt hamber at you but I'm not so sure.. it depends what you want a little bit..

I certainly favour dinitrol or simlar in the cavities but I've found waxyol works great for the underside. It's much cheaper so you can lather it on nice and thick and it's easy to reapply every few years. Being avalible in clear it works well when you don't want everything covered in a layer of black too..

When I've use dinitrol underbody coating on stuff I've done I wasnt particularly happy. The stuff never dried and stayed wet and slimey and was a complete pain when you wanted to work underneath. Also you only got quite a thin layer for considerbly more money than waxyol.. I guess it worked alright but didnt seem worth the extra investment to me.

Not a massive fan of schultz either.

[e30ben]

Shultz is generally horrid as in places it drys, chips off Then moisture gets underneath and rots everything from the inside out but looks as good as it did applied. Mostly used as well to hide poor repairs / rust on bridge dodging scrap like transits.

3m rubberised overpaintable under body procreation is a good non Shultz type thing as is gavitek raptor so I’m told.

(The 3m stuff is very much like what vw, Audi and bmw use and have done for like 40 years)

[rattlecan]

Surely slackerTHEpinstriper is the man to ask 😀

[dodgerover]

I think a lot depends on what product you get, Shultz seems to have become a generic name for under seal of any type.

I don't rate waxoil in exposed areas underneath as I've seen it just peel off in sheets, anything that needs annual touching up to keep doing it's job and redoing every 3 years is a waste of time in my book.

[kevins]

Jan 24, 2021 16:52:28 GMT dodgerover said:

I think a lot depends on what product you get, Shultz seems to have become a generic name for under seal of any type.

I don't rate waxoil in exposed areas underneath as I've seen it just peel off in sheets, anything that needs annual touching up to keep doing it's job and redoing every 3 years is a waste of time in my book.

Strange it peeling off, my experience is it sticks to everything including all the places you don't want it, guess it depends what you apply it over. Virtually all waxes will need re-doing in high impact areas, one trick I was told is to do the undeebody with a light coulored stone chip then overcoat with a black wax, when the white starts to show it needs doing again, I find it's no great problem to do it as part of the annual service when the wheels are off anyway.

[toast00]

The 3M Raptor somebody mentioned is a bedliner paint for pick-up trucks. It is really tough and is over paintable so is like a stone chip, however it is extremely brittle, so if you have any flex such as flat panel floors, it can crack off. Don't get me wrong, it takes alot to do so but if you look at tests on Youtibe, after people have thrown heavy items at it, it can chip and flake. 3M also do a similar product called Gravitex which is also like a stone chip but more suited to car undersides. Both these products would be used on top hard paint finishes like bodywork, not on flexible rubberised under seal type areas, or where cars have already been covered in mastic type goo.

Personally i really like the Bilt Hamber products. If you apply with a roller, they look factory and are thick and rubbery, not bitumen type. They also do cavity wax in a spray can with long lance, for box areas.

I have been redoing the underside of my car lately, stripping right back to bare metal, then using BH Zinc etch primer, BH seam sealer or Upol Tiger Seal, BH Epoxy Primer, 3m Gravitex, then finished with BH black underseal. The sills will be left with Gravitex then colour painted to look factory.

Alot of people give Dinotrol high marks too. Personally i just find Waxoyl too tar like and doesn't seem as resistant to abrasion as other things.

[Midland Performance & Retro]

Jan 25, 2021 13:33:58 GMT toast00 said:

The 3M Raptor somebody mentioned is a bedliner paint for pick-up trucks. It is really tough and is over paintable so is like a stone chip, however it is extremely brittle, so if you have any flex such as flat panel floors, it can crack off. Don't get me wrong, it takes alot to do so but if you look at tests on Youtibe, after people have thrown heavy items at it, it can chip and flake. 3M also do a similar product called Gravitex which is also like a stone chip but more suited to car undersides. Both these products would be used on top hard paint finishes like bodywork, not on flexible rubberised under seal type areas, or where cars have already been covered in mastic type goo.

There is some duff information here on an otherwise pretty well informed post.

Firstly, Raptor and Gravitex are both made by UPol, not 3M.

Gravitex is Upol's cheap and cheerful stonechip offering. It's ok, but there's not much flex in it, so can get brittle in places or after time, but as below, it will depend on how well it has been prepped as to how successful it is, but there's not much flex in it.

Raptor was designed as a bedliner, but was taken on by the restoration world as the ultimate evolution of a "stonechip" type coating on the market. It feels hard to touch, but has a very high content of "rubberised" material. UPol do a colour/sample swatch for Raptor of thin metal cards, which are coated in Raptor. You can bend them in any direction you like and bend them right back on themselves. It will never peel, chip or crack. 

Sure, you will find examples of what looks like Raptor "failing", but it's all down to the surface underneath it and the prep work that has gone into it.

One thing to always be aware of is that Raptor, Gravitex or any stonechip coating has absolutely no rust-inhibiting qualities whatsoever. It is just there to provide a barrier. You have to use other techniques and products to make sure it is being applied to a completely rust free and rust-proofed surface and correctly prepared. If you do that, it is virtually indestructible under normal usage. You also then have to make sure all cavities and channels are protected. I would also recommend a "wax" type coating over the top of the Raptor and other bits. Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 and UC are the best on the market for this. The lab test results are available for anyone to view for this effect.

Also, whilst you can paint over Raptor, as you can with Gravitex, that's not ideal as whilst the Raptor will never flex and crack, the paint coating over the top of it would. That's why they produce a "tintable" Raptor, where you mix your paint colour into the Raptor, tinting the Raptor itself to the correct colour, thus retaining all the Raptor's properties, but in the desired colour. 

Basically, if you're working from a completely bare underbody floor, with all welding work (if any required) carried out, the below would be the ultimate treatment that's available today in my opinion.

- Lead load over welded seams
- Zinc Treat underside (Depending on application either treatment with a Hot Zinc gun or a fairly heavy coat of Bilt Hamber Electrox. Very few people with have a hot Zinc gun. Electrox is fine, but make sure it is thinned with Pure Xylene if you are spraying it. Bilt Hamber sell Xylene, but if you're going to be using a lot of it, it is much cheaper to buy from Amazon
- Flat this down. Reapply to any areas you may have gone back through to bare metal
- Epoxy Prime all over. Flat back. Again, reapply if you go through to zinc or do an extra coat all over if you're not happy
- High Build Polyester Prime all over. A couple of good coats. I highly recommend Lechler Green Ti for this. Flat back ready for top coat and then use a good quality panel wipe all over it. 
- Coat with UPol Raptor
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 into all cavities, inside chassis rails and all over hidden areas etc. I would highly recommend investing a good quality cavity wax gun for this rather than using the cans with the lance.  I use a Sealey one, which cost about £70-£80 and that perfect for the job. This is a brown colour and will ooze out of openings, so let it do its thing, then wipe it off with thinners/panel wipe if it ends up anywhere you don't want it to.
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax UC over the top of the surface and around the openings to cavities etc. It may look thick and yellowish to start with, but it will go off clear.

[xbl]

^^ That's an incredibly informative post.

[Midland Performance & Retro]

I will also add, for the benefit of the OP. If someone asked me for my opinion of how to protect an underside as effectively as possible, but being both as cheap and quick as possible, I would clean up the underside as best as possible with a wire brush and such like and then coat the underside with the combination of Dynax S50 and UC. That would certainly help to protect the underside and slow down any minor corrosion already there.

I wouldn't recommend any kind of Stonechip/Raptor/Schutz type coatings unless you are really going to town on creating a perfect and treated surface for it to adhere to. If you were repairing sills, for instance and you replaced an outer sill or section thereof and took the whole outer sill surface to bare metal then yes, stonechip that area, but again just Dynax the underside unless you are giving it the full works as per my previous post.

All stonechip will do otherwise is trap in corrosion and rubbish, which WILL break out over time.

[kevins]

On our Mx5 which had a fair bit of heavy corrosion on the suspension components / subframes and a few odd spots of light corrosion on the body I wire brushed it all as clean as I could painted converter on it and when that had dried coated it all in wax, that seems to be lasting well (3 years now with all year round use.

[jgtr]

Jan 25, 2021 14:37:33 GMT Midland Performance & Retro said:

Jan 25, 2021 13:33:58 GMT toast00 said:

The 3M Raptor somebody mentioned is a bedliner paint for pick-up trucks. It is really tough and is over paintable so is like a stone chip, however it is extremely brittle, so if you have any flex such as flat panel floors, it can crack off. Don't get me wrong, it takes alot to do so but if you look at tests on Youtibe, after people have thrown heavy items at it, it can chip and flake. 3M also do a similar product called Gravitex which is also like a stone chip but more suited to car undersides. Both these products would be used on top hard paint finishes like bodywork, not on flexible rubberised under seal type areas, or where cars have already been covered in mastic type goo.

There is some duff information here on an otherwise pretty well informed post.

Firstly, Raptor and Gravitex are both made by UPol, not 3M.

Gravitex is Upol's cheap and cheerful stonechip offering. It's ok, but there's not much flex in it, so can get brittle in places or after time, but as below, it will depend on how well it has been prepped as to how successful it is, but there's not much flex in it.

Raptor was designed as a bedliner, but was taken on by the restoration world as the ultimate evolution of a "stonechip" type coating on the market. It feels hard to touch, but has a very high content of "rubberised" material. UPol do a colour/sample swatch for Raptor of thin metal cards, which are coated in Raptor. You can bend them in any direction you like and bend them right back on themselves. It will never peel, chip or crack. 

Sure, you will find examples of what looks like Raptor "failing", but it's all down to the surface underneath it and the prep work that has gone into it.

One thing to always be aware of is that Raptor, Gravitex or any stonechip coating has absolutely no rust-inhibiting qualities whatsoever. It is just there to provide a barrier. You have to use other techniques and products to make sure it is being applied to a completely rust free and rust-proofed surface and correctly prepared. If you do that, it is virtually indestructible under normal usage. You also then have to make sure all cavities and channels are protected. I would also recommend a "wax" type coating over the top of the Raptor and other bits. Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 and UC are the best on the market for this. The lab test results are available for anyone to view for this effect.

Also, whilst you can paint over Raptor, as you can with Gravitex, that's not ideal as whilst the Raptor will never flex and crack, the paint coating over the top of it would. That's why they produce a "tintable" Raptor, where you mix your paint colour into the Raptor, tinting the Raptor itself to the correct colour, thus retaining all the Raptor's properties, but in the desired colour. 

Basically, if you're working from a completely bare underbody floor, with all welding work (if any required) carried out, the below would be the ultimate treatment that's available today in my opinion.

- Lead load over welded seams
- Zinc Treat underside (Depending on application either treatment with a Hot Zinc gun or a fairly heavy coat of Bilt Hamber Electrox. Very few people with have a hot Zinc gun. Electrox is fine, but make sure it is thinned with Pure Xylene if you are spraying it. Bilt Hamber sell Xylene, but if you're going to be using a lot of it, it is much cheaper to buy from Amazon
- Flat this down. Reapply to any areas you may have gone back through to bare metal
- Epoxy Prime all over. Flat back. Again, reapply if you go through to zinc or do an extra coat all over if you're not happy
- High Build Polyester Prime all over. A couple of good coats. I highly recommend Lechler Green Ti for this. Flat back ready for top coat and then use a good quality panel wipe all over it. 
- Coat with UPol Raptor
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 into all cavities, inside chassis rails and all over hidden areas etc. I would highly recommend investing a good quality cavity wax gun for this rather than using the cans with the lance.  I use a Sealey one, which cost about £70-£80 and that perfect for the job. This is a brown colour and will ooze out of openings, so let it do its thing, then wipe it off with thinners/panel wipe if it ends up anywhere you don't want it to.
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax UC over the top of the surface and around the openings to cavities etc. It may look thick and yellowish to start with, but it will go off clear.

Just a quick question, what’s the purpose of high build polyester primer over epoxy primer? I was of the understanding that the epoxy primer would be a sufficient surface to apply your top coat (whether that be Raptor or colour coat)? The Raptor kits come with just an epoxy primer and Raptor topcoat.

The other reason I ask is that I have used epoxy on my vehicle, have flatted back with 500 and was told that this would be good enough for the topcoat (2k solid colour).

[Midland Performance & Retro]

I would never top coat directly over Epoxy. You can do that, but you'll get far better adhesion and better, more lasting results with a high quality High Build Polyester in between.

[kevstarlet]

Jan 25, 2021 14:37:33 GMT Midland Performance & Retro said:

Jan 25, 2021 13:33:58 GMT toast00 said:

The 3M Raptor somebody mentioned is a bedliner paint for pick-up trucks. It is really tough and is over paintable so is like a stone chip, however it is extremely brittle, so if you have any flex such as flat panel floors, it can crack off. Don't get me wrong, it takes alot to do so but if you look at tests on Youtibe, after people have thrown heavy items at it, it can chip and flake. 3M also do a similar product called Gravitex which is also like a stone chip but more suited to car undersides. Both these products would be used on top hard paint finishes like bodywork, not on flexible rubberised under seal type areas, or where cars have already been covered in mastic type goo.

There is some duff information here on an otherwise pretty well informed post.

Firstly, Raptor and Gravitex are both made by UPol, not 3M.

Gravitex is Upol's cheap and cheerful stonechip offering. It's ok, but there's not much flex in it, so can get brittle in places or after time, but as below, it will depend on how well it has been prepped as to how successful it is, but there's not much flex in it.

Raptor was designed as a bedliner, but was taken on by the restoration world as the ultimate evolution of a "stonechip" type coating on the market. It feels hard to touch, but has a very high content of "rubberised" material. UPol do a colour/sample swatch for Raptor of thin metal cards, which are coated in Raptor. You can bend them in any direction you like and bend them right back on themselves. It will never peel, chip or crack. 

Sure, you will find examples of what looks like Raptor "failing", but it's all down to the surface underneath it and the prep work that has gone into it.

One thing to always be aware of is that Raptor, Gravitex or any stonechip coating has absolutely no rust-inhibiting qualities whatsoever. It is just there to provide a barrier. You have to use other techniques and products to make sure it is being applied to a completely rust free and rust-proofed surface and correctly prepared. If you do that, it is virtually indestructible under normal usage. You also then have to make sure all cavities and channels are protected. I would also recommend a "wax" type coating over the top of the Raptor and other bits. Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 and UC are the best on the market for this. The lab test results are available for anyone to view for this effect.

Also, whilst you can paint over Raptor, as you can with Gravitex, that's not ideal as whilst the Raptor will never flex and crack, the paint coating over the top of it would. That's why they produce a "tintable" Raptor, where you mix your paint colour into the Raptor, tinting the Raptor itself to the correct colour, thus retaining all the Raptor's properties, but in the desired colour. 

Basically, if you're working from a completely bare underbody floor, with all welding work (if any required) carried out, the below would be the ultimate treatment that's available today in my opinion.

- Lead load over welded seams
- Zinc Treat underside (Depending on application either treatment with a Hot Zinc gun or a fairly heavy coat of Bilt Hamber Electrox. Very few people with have a hot Zinc gun. Electrox is fine, but make sure it is thinned with Pure Xylene if you are spraying it. Bilt Hamber sell Xylene, but if you're going to be using a lot of it, it is much cheaper to buy from Amazon
- Flat this down. Reapply to any areas you may have gone back through to bare metal
- Epoxy Prime all over. Flat back. Again, reapply if you go through to zinc or do an extra coat all over if you're not happy
- High Build Polyester Prime all over. A couple of good coats. I highly recommend Lechler Green Ti for this. Flat back ready for top coat and then use a good quality panel wipe all over it. 
- Coat with UPol Raptor
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 into all cavities, inside chassis rails and all over hidden areas etc. I would highly recommend investing a good quality cavity wax gun for this rather than using the cans with the lance.  I use a Sealey one, which cost about £70-£80 and that perfect for the job. This is a brown colour and will ooze out of openings, so let it do its thing, then wipe it off with thinners/panel wipe if it ends up anywhere you don't want it to.
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax UC over the top of the surface and around the openings to cavities etc. It may look thick and yellowish to start with, but it will go off clear.

Why flatten back the epoxy primer when you could just let it flash and wet on wet with the high build. Most epoxy primers stay "open" for 24hrs so are overcoatable without sanding.

[jgtr]

Jan 26, 2021 9:45:28 GMT Midland Performance & Retro said:

I would never top coat directly over Epoxy. You can do that, but you'll get far better adhesion and better, more lasting results with a high quality High Build Polyester in between.

Ok cool, I’m new to using epoxy, consensus I got online and the TDS for the product indicate no problem topcoating epoxy providing its within the drying window or it is appropriately sanded. It’s also seems to be widely used as a sealer prior top coat.

My current plan is epoxy, filler, epoxy, topcoat, hope I haven’t done it wrong😫

[Midland Performance & Retro]

Jan 26, 2021 10:24:16 GMT jgtr said:

Jan 26, 2021 9:45:28 GMT Midland Performance & Retro said:

I would never top coat directly over Epoxy. You can do that, but you'll get far better adhesion and better, more lasting results with a high quality High Build Polyester in between.

Ok cool, I’m new to using epoxy, consensus I got online and the TDS for the product indicate no problem topcoating epoxy providing its within the drying window or it is appropriately sanded. It’s also seems to be widely used as a sealer prior top coat.

My current plan is epoxy, filler, epoxy, topcoat, hope I haven’t done it wrong😫

There's nothing "wrong" with that. It's just a process that can be improved upon. 

[Midland Performance & Retro]

Jan 26, 2021 10:11:25 GMT kevstarlet said:

Jan 25, 2021 14:37:33 GMT Midland Performance & Retro said:

There is some duff information here on an otherwise pretty well informed post.

Firstly, Raptor and Gravitex are both made by UPol, not 3M.

Gravitex is Upol's cheap and cheerful stonechip offering. It's ok, but there's not much flex in it, so can get brittle in places or after time, but as below, it will depend on how well it has been prepped as to how successful it is, but there's not much flex in it.

Raptor was designed as a bedliner, but was taken on by the restoration world as the ultimate evolution of a "stonechip" type coating on the market. It feels hard to touch, but has a very high content of "rubberised" material. UPol do a colour/sample swatch for Raptor of thin metal cards, which are coated in Raptor. You can bend them in any direction you like and bend them right back on themselves. It will never peel, chip or crack. 

Sure, you will find examples of what looks like Raptor "failing", but it's all down to the surface underneath it and the prep work that has gone into it.

One thing to always be aware of is that Raptor, Gravitex or any stonechip coating has absolutely no rust-inhibiting qualities whatsoever. It is just there to provide a barrier. You have to use other techniques and products to make sure it is being applied to a completely rust free and rust-proofed surface and correctly prepared. If you do that, it is virtually indestructible under normal usage. You also then have to make sure all cavities and channels are protected. I would also recommend a "wax" type coating over the top of the Raptor and other bits. Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 and UC are the best on the market for this. The lab test results are available for anyone to view for this effect.

Also, whilst you can paint over Raptor, as you can with Gravitex, that's not ideal as whilst the Raptor will never flex and crack, the paint coating over the top of it would. That's why they produce a "tintable" Raptor, where you mix your paint colour into the Raptor, tinting the Raptor itself to the correct colour, thus retaining all the Raptor's properties, but in the desired colour. 

Basically, if you're working from a completely bare underbody floor, with all welding work (if any required) carried out, the below would be the ultimate treatment that's available today in my opinion.

- Lead load over welded seams
- Zinc Treat underside (Depending on application either treatment with a Hot Zinc gun or a fairly heavy coat of Bilt Hamber Electrox. Very few people with have a hot Zinc gun. Electrox is fine, but make sure it is thinned with Pure Xylene if you are spraying it. Bilt Hamber sell Xylene, but if you're going to be using a lot of it, it is much cheaper to buy from Amazon
- Flat this down. Reapply to any areas you may have gone back through to bare metal
- Epoxy Prime all over. Flat back. Again, reapply if you go through to zinc or do an extra coat all over if you're not happy
- High Build Polyester Prime all over. A couple of good coats. I highly recommend Lechler Green Ti for this. Flat back ready for top coat and then use a good quality panel wipe all over it. 
- Coat with UPol Raptor
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax S50 into all cavities, inside chassis rails and all over hidden areas etc. I would highly recommend investing a good quality cavity wax gun for this rather than using the cans with the lance.  I use a Sealey one, which cost about £70-£80 and that perfect for the job. This is a brown colour and will ooze out of openings, so let it do its thing, then wipe it off with thinners/panel wipe if it ends up anywhere you don't want it to.
- Spray Bilt Hamber Dynax UC over the top of the surface and around the openings to cavities etc. It may look thick and yellowish to start with, but it will go off clear.

Why flatten back the epoxy primer when you could just let it flash and wet on wet with the high build. Most epoxy primers stay "open" for 24hrs so are overcoatable without sanding.

True in a lot of cases, but without going into great details on different epoxys and primers and a lot fof people, especially DIY'ers I would assume would be more likely to take a little longer and do it in stages, but yes nothing wrong with a wet on wet coat where it's suitable to do so. 

[legend]

what does anyone think of the brushable zinc stuff like Zinc 182, is this worth a go over the fresh steel or have things moved on significantly?

[kevins]

Jan 26, 2021 9:45:28 GMT Midland Performance & Retro said:

I would never top coat directly over Epoxy. You can do that, but you'll get far better adhesion and better, more lasting results with a high quality High Build Polyester in between.

There is one good reason to only use epoxy for those of us working in less than ideal conditions, polyester absorbs water, and if you don't dry it out properly can lead to micro blisters, epoxy on the other hand is waterproof so you only have to make sure the surface is dry.

I'm currently scrapping a lot of paint off my elan because an old layer of polyester has absorbed water and blistered, wouldn't want to wish this on anyone!