1972 Rover P6 2300TC - Saab B234 Turbo

[heathrobinson]

That's handy! Not sure how it goes with Saab lumps, or if it's a drag thing, but my main concern is oil slop in hard corners, so it's the lateral baffles that I looked at most. I think a horizontal baffle plate will do pretty much what I want, and works in any direction, only real concern is getting oil to return under it fast enough, which shouldn't be too tricky. Famous last words...

What pressure did you test it to? I'll have to do something similar, hadn't fully thought that bit of the plan through yet.

[sowen]

It's quite a deep and narrow sump so I don't see sideways forces causing too many issues, yet! The length is of concern hence the priority to put something baffle-like infront and behind the pick-up. If the bowl was shorter then that would require a different approach to oil control. I've read that later Saab engines had oil supply issues because they fitted a finer mesh in the pick-up pipe and that had a habit of getting clogged up and causing bearing failures, no other issues I've read of on oil supply from cornering/acceleration etc.

The test was just plain aviation grade 100LL Avgas poured in a sloshed about, with a coat of etch primer on the outside it's highlighted a few areas which haven't sealed properly. Note to self, pure Argon gas is curse word like CO2 when MIG welding steel! If I can get another Argoshield bottle on the weekend I should be able to complete the sump ready for final sealing on.

[heathrobinson]

Yeah, can't remember which argoshield it is, maybe 15, but whatever my local welding shop suggested for thin metal, it's the bomb. A world away from my old pub gas co2 affair!

[sowen]

Feb 18, 2016 18:46:04 GMT heathrobinson said:

Yeah, can't remember which argoshield it is, maybe 15, but whatever my local welding shop suggested for thin metal, it's the bomb. A world away from my old pub gas co2 affair!

We've got a BOC account, not cheap but well worth it if doing a lot of welding and there's an agricultural supplies just down the road so exchanges are easy.

Some blingy aluminium adapters for the oil cooler take off came through the post, will need to source some more fittings and hose then eventually find somewhere to fit the oil cooler itself



With a new gas bottle the welding was finished off on the sump, and then given a coat of primer







Next job was to do a leak test, so I took the sump to work and borrowed an offcut of aluminium, sealed and bolted it down then filled if some aviation grade fuel and waited a few hours....



A few pin hole leaks appeared, most likely caused by the pause in welding. Drilled and ground out the pin holes then re-welded, appears to seal up well now



Hunting on Ebay I've found a suitable throttle body, 68mm throttle, fitted with a TPS and two seperate throttle arms, plan is one for the pedal, and the second for a fast idle as I've been having trouble getting the fast idle valve working







Looks at home on the front of the inlet manifold, only issues are that it doesn't bolt on yet and dwarfs the size of the plenum! My first plan is to split the plenum along it's length, make it tapered and have the throttle body flange welded on the end at 45 degrees...

Also made a start sorting out the ancillaries and making the EDIS trigger wheel adapter for the crankshaft pulley



Sump painted black looks at home on the bottom of the engine now, just internal baffles to sort out now



Got the aluminium adapter-spacer rings delivered so once I take the engine off the stand I'll make a start finishing off the gearbox adapter

[sowen]

Next to be modified was the inlet manifold, so I started by cutting the plenum open...



...and then started sticking it back together again....









Hoping it's all in the right places and works, no going back now!

And then back to the gearbox adapter. I'd bought a big plate of 20mm thick aluminium, which has been cut up to my cardboard templates, and now drilled and bolted to the back of the Saab engine. The outer profile has been left rough until I've finalised the exact positioning of the bellhousing when it will be smoothed out to match the alloy rings I've got.







The SD1 2600 bellhousing needs customising to suit the higher positioning of the starter motor, so some rough lines were drawn on and cut with the angle grinder











So far only one of the two rings has been drilled and tapped all the way round so that the bellhousing can be held in shape ready for welding and accurately positioning for drilling the second ring and the two crankcase plates

Last job for tonight was to lift the R380 gearbox up on the crane and lower it onto the engine so I could check the alignment and clearances before running a few pilot holes all the way through







Now with it all closely aligned I can see how to proceed more clearly, the lower crankcase bolt holes on the thick alloy plates will need helicoiling so I can fit the bolts from the front, and the alloy ring that goes on against the engine will need holes boring into it to clear the upper crankcase bolts. Then it's firmly joining the two rings together and final drilling/tapping to finish the basic bellhousing attachment before continuing with the next stages of fabrication

[sowen]

Because sunny day













Still got plenty to do, but the initial quick measurements indicate the radiator and intercooler will have to slide further forwards by 2-3" to allow for enough clearance at the back of the head where the water outlets are, and not really a huge amount of work overall apart from plumbing it all in

[froggy]

Looking good , how will the box cope with some boost up it ?

[sowen]

Mar 20, 2016 17:23:28 GMT froggy said:

Looking good , how will the box cope with some boost up it ?

I'll find out when it breaks! It's an R380, apparently rated at 380Nm, in the real world I don't know how long it'll last? They are damned heavy, larger gears inside compared to the preceding LT77 with all of the larger bearings as standard. The usual Vauxhall R25 and R28 I've read are only rated at 250Nm and 280Nm respectively, and I've read a few people are killing those with hard use with higher power so hopefully the Rover gearbox should fare better for longer.

[heathrobinson]

I've seen r380s behind some fairly tuned v8s, and they're really abused off road. It seems to cope quite well, but there are a couple of problems that turn up after a fair few miles - the bearing on the 5th gear lay shaft doesn't get enough oil, or the casting's not quite perfect or something, as it ends up with the bearing spinning in the case, making a racket and a mess.
Not heard of many getting properly destroyed though, so that's hopeful

[sowen]

Mar 20, 2016 22:19:28 GMT heathrobinson said:

I've seen r380s behind some fairly tuned v8s, and they're really abused off road. It seems to cope quite well, but there are a couple of problems that turn up after a fair few miles - the bearing on the 5th gear lay shaft doesn't get enough oil, or the casting's not quite perfect or something, as it ends up with the bearing spinning in the case, making a racket and a mess.
Not heard of many getting properly destroyed though, so that's hopeful

I've come across a few people claiming to have shredded early LT77's behind V8's, and likewise, not really seen anything bad about the R380. I have one in my Discovery behind the tdi, I drive it hard, foot down hard all the time and it's not bust yet, and no extra volume coming from the transmission tunnel either. Quality gear oil rather than atf is probably the key ingredient!

The alternatives are the usual T5, or go more exotic with a BMW 530d gearbox with a custom welded casing. In my situation, having a few R380's spare and the fact that there's already one in the car makes it a no-brainer to fit a custom bellhousing to get it running. The clutch is most likely to give out long before the gearbox fails.

[kevins]

I have finished off 2 LT77s behind a std 3.5 RV8 in my TR7 so they are definitely not up too much the latest thing people have started using is the RX8 6 speed which is supposed to be bomb proof and dirt cheap, there was a guy selling adaptor plates for various engines at the nec classic car show.

[sowen]

Mar 21, 2016 21:20:49 GMT kevins said:

I have finished off 2 LT77s behind a std 3.5 RV8 in my TR7 so they are definitely not up too much the latest thing people have started using is the RX8 6 speed which is supposed to be bomb proof and dirt cheap, there was a guy selling adaptor plates for various engines at the nec classic car show.

What suffix were they and what failed? Also what oil was in them?

[jikovron]

Ive had a look inside a suffix G and a D to come to a conclusion that anything older than a G is noticably weaker, namely as the G and H recieved 20% wider gears as per the r380 but retains the lt77 bearing and synchro architecture
I ragged a G suffix continously on the 'wrong' sae 80 oil and only killed it 40k later because the oil level unnoticeably dropped enough to cease lubricating the input shaft bearing which relies on splash lubrication unlike the pressure feed to all the other ones, now ive got a D suffix fitted, ive less faith in its robustness but its easily up to normal use
Imo a late R380 will live beind a turbo Saab comfortably if maintained well

[sowen]

Mar 22, 2016 8:54:50 GMT jikovron said:

Ive had a look inside a suffix G and a D to come to a conclusion that anything older than a G is noticably weaker, namely as the G and H recieved 20% wider gears as per the r380 but retains the lt77 bearing and synchro architecture
I ragged a G suffix continously on the 'wrong' sae 80 oil and only killed it 40k later because the oil level unnoticeably dropped enough to cease lubricating the input shaft bearing which relies on splash lubrication unlike the pressure feed to all the other ones, now ive got a D suffix fitted, ive less faith in its robustness but its easily up to normal use
Imo a late R380 will live beind a turbo Saab comfortably if maintained well

Yep that's what I've seen by pulling them apart. Upto suffix C they had quite small bearings throughout and were more or less standard fit with all the BL cars including V8's apart from the SD1 Vitesse that had the marginally better suffix D which wasn't in reality much of an improvement. Suffix E and F were I think the Land Rover equivalents so pretty poor too. I have a spare suffix G LT77 from a Sherpa van and those are quite chunky in comparison to the earlier rwd variants. I think there was then a dual synchro variant upto the mid 90's when the R380 superseded the LT77, and they cope happily behind most of the mid to late 90's Land Rover's when used, abused and tuned! I think it's just the old myth of running atf with the early suffix C 'boxes that gives them the poor reputation with many people.

[sowen]

Got my inlet manifold back, looks the part hanging off the side of the Saab lump

[varelse]

Loving the fabrication in this thread. It's FABulous!

[sowen]

Mar 23, 2016 23:14:03 GMT varelse said:

Loving the fabrication in this thread. It's FABulous!

Thanks

The bellhousing adapter is complete, I've permanently bolted the two aluminium rings together and helicoiled some of the threaded holes for strength. I've also made a simple dustshield to fill in the gap behind the sump



I've also painted the aluminium plates, ring and bellhousing. First with etch primer, then epoxy primer followed by a coat of Hammerite silver for colour!











Also done a bit more to the sump baffles. I've cut holes in the first and third baffles and added a little flap at the bottom to let the oil flow into the pick-up compartments but slow it down from exiting them. The flaps need to be properly weighted to hold them closed and have brackets added to stop them going too high. I'm still undecided if to add something above the pick-up in the centre to slow the oil down from being splashed upwards, or leave it as is, just tidied up and tightly bolted together?











Engine mount fabrication has also begun, the sideplates made from 4mm steel cut and folded to fit the engine block and an old spare pair of Lycoming aircraft engine mounts put aside specially

[sowen]

I had a delivery of 630cc Siemens Deka fuel injectors in the week, should flow enough fuel for what I want to be doing to start with



During the week I shoved the manifold in the blast cabinet at work, then gave it a few coats of clear lacquer to help stop it going fuzzy over time. Looks really good with the new injectors and rail refitted. I've even found a spare AN6 alloy banjo fitting so I can run Aeroquip style braided fuel hoses onto the engine

[dikkehemaworst]

man , you make it look so easy.....
iḿ in awe of your skills. Thanks for letting us in your workshop and let us look over your shoulder!!

[sowen]

Apr 23, 2016 15:02:38 GMT dikkehemaworst said:

man , you make it look so easy.....
iḿ in awe of your skills. Thanks for letting us in your workshop and let us look over your shoulder!!

Pictures do have a habit of making things look easy!

This morning was nice and sunny so I got the P6 out





Then this happened...



















Fits pretty well as expected, needs to come down 1" at the front and then slide back 1" to locate on the propshaft. The V8 pedal box and clutch master arrangement is hitting the inlet manifold preventing it from sliding back any further, and a little trimming is required on the bracket below the alternator to let it drop down.

The rest of it is mounts, exhaust, plumbing and re-arranging odd bits here and there to suit that will take forever as usual before it's running and drivable...