Track Attack comments and feedback thread - ALL

[bstardchild]

Just like last year I’m looking for a bit of feedback from both people who went on track and the people who watched. If we do this thing again I’d like it to be better for all and I’d like to learn from any mistakes we made.

This years points system is not up for debate – we can’t time any event held on Haynes circuit and will never be able to due to restrictions placed on their track licence.


Event Format

So from last year’s “sprint” we went in an opposite direction and did a “track attack” with a box stop and an extra chicane
We did 10 car groups last year and the session timings slipped – 10 cars again this year and again the sessions slipped so gut feel for me says we need to shrink the groups to 5 to speed up the sessions and keep to the time plan.

Did people who did multiple sessions from morning thro to afternoon think smaller groups worked better or did bigger groups give you more time to recover or compose yourself for the next run?

One thing is for sure doing runs on the bounce for all really is not an option (after 3 runs in the Monza at the end of the event, car oil temperature was over 125 deg C which is the same as a full 45 min session on track) the air cooling effect on a tight track is very limited


Track Layout

So we need to lay the track out to be as safe as possible (whilst still being fun and challenging) kept the same 2 lap layout to increase the track time - A few people went wrong and ended up doing three laps or missing the cone chicane on the back straight on the 2nd run, we did talk about some signage on the grass before the track split but in the end we decided not to penalise anyone if the didn’t go thro the cone chicane on the second lap. Could we improve on this aspect or is it a case of whatever we do people will occasionally go wrong and it’s only a bit of fun after all?

Were there too many cones on track – we created a cone chicane on the last run to keep speeds down at the top of the hill and also had to push cars wide at the tight chicane at the end of the first lap due to a big hole in the circuit edge (one of the reason we ran it backwards this year as it caused some problems for lower cars last year.)

From my perspective the box stop seemed to give a lot of participants a huge amount of problems – cars frequently stalled in it or were sliding through it

Just for my curiosity how did the event look from the banks – did it appear pedestrian and was the turnover of cars slow (there were some comments along those lines last time and we did what we could to improve the turnaround times)

For the future (if we have to ensure that speeds are reduced - I can only work based on my own laps but I was hitting 65mph before braking for the top corner maybe the fastest cars were quicker than that)

What would participants and spectators feel about a course more like an “autotest” where changes of direction and reversing/parking and more precision movements were required?

I recognise that this would then rule out the drift content but from the seat in the centre of the house some of that raised my heart rate by 30 bpm


Preparation

Preparation this year was a lot easier as I a lot of stuff I had ready from last year, car detail sheets, Points sheets, session time plan (although that went west again this year but I think participants were kept up to date with the public address system so didn’t end up waiting for ages for a delayed session).

What you might not be aware of is that the event team had to put a risk assessment together to cover all aspect of the event and how we would handle/react/deal with any incidents – this would be required again if we went to the same location and we may need to think about how we do the event.


Classes

Did participants feel classes were fair and pitched like v like?


Other Comments

If anyone has any other comments not covered by above that would improve the event in anyway just post them up.

[kee]

From where i was it looked like a good layout, a lot of entertainment came from the drifters so putting autotest style sections would be a big no-no from me.

We saw how many people had problems with the stop, maybe instead of this, the finish line could be put part way down the home straight, but would the cars passing through the beams to go onto the second lap cause issues with this, I'm guessing so.

[bstardchild]

Aug 10, 2010 12:44:30 GMT kee said:

From where I was it looked like a good layout, a lot of entertainment came from the drifters so putting autotest style sections would be a big no-no from me.

As expected - think of it as thought provoking/idea generation rather than statement of fact - lets face it it might be possible to have both ie split the day.

Aug 10, 2010 12:44:30 GMT kee said:

We saw how many people had problems with the stop, maybe instead of this, the finish line could be put part way down the home straight, but would the cars passing through the beams to go onto the second lap cause issues with this, I'm guessing so.

The beams were there to control the start light (I had to explain this to someone from Haynes as they were concerned we were timing the event) in order to make sure there was only one car on track the light at the start couldn't be turned green untill after the previous car on track had finished.

[crazycruzer]

I had 2 track sessions this year and found the layout very good. The coneing off of the apex at the end of the first lap is a must and a very good idea, otheriwise your right cars would cut the corner and damage their vehicle. I also didnt think that there were too many cones out there and the layout of the track was very easy to follow (well I thaught it was anyway!)

I think that the stop box at the end was not particularly to my liking although not a problem, but I can see how people may not like it! would it be possible instead of finishing straight to maybe have the finish just round the corner after the box, or would that play merry hell with the light beam being broken twice?

I would definatly not like to see the groups reduced or consecutive runs, becuase I found it very usefull once finished a run to compose myself again and more importantly let the car cool down before the next run! I'm sure Claymore would agree... it allows for that emergency tinkering time as well!

I think the classes were fair, although some may say that group b was a little large? My car was right in the middle of the engine size and aquired more points than some larger engined cars and was was not as good as some smaller engined cars, so id say the groups were good!

I think that the idea of a test style idea wouldnt be as popular as this years format and may put some people off. I guess it may also not be as interesting to watch from the banks too, and the drift boys wouldnt be able to play!

As for the effort / input from yourslef / the organisers, I cant fault it! the I think the planning wa second to none, and my track sessions were perfect, very well organised and executed! You chaps should be very pleased with yourselves you did a sterling job obvioulsy things do occur that delay procedings, but thats what happens with track shinannigans!! Big thanks from me :-)

[kee]

regarding classes
how about doing it in combined size and cylinder numbers?
say normal class A with upto 4 cylinders
Class B over 1500 4 cylinder only
Class C 6 cylinder
Class D 8 cylinder.

Turbo'd/supercharged cars could be bumped up to the next class

[crazycruzer]

where would you put the wankles?^^

[kee]

Class B

[jonkheer]

I liked some changes that were made this year, like the cone chicane on the second lap, and i do understand why the cones in the hairpin are there, but i still prefer cutting that corner

I only have mixed feelings about the box stop; i thought it was less safe than last year (imagine someone blocking their brakes and crashing in the waiting cars), and i think a flying finish is more exciting for the driver.. not in the last place because i messed it up two times if i remember corectly

[alolympic]

I think 1st thing to say is, well done Ian!
A great feature of the day and a real focus point making it much more than just a static car show.

Event format - no new ideas, works fine
Autotest style would be less exciting, drifting is great for the spectators

Track Layout - again, works fine. Only suggestion would be to have the finish (timing line) maybe 20 feet back up the straight from the current stop box. The lap would be timed to this end point, but the drivers would then have to come to a full stop at the end of the current box.

Only other suggestion is I think it would be great to have 2 warm up, parade laps, with no overtaking, for each group. This would help get at least some warmth into the tyres and allow people to get a feel for the layout.
Could this get past the regs somehow?

[kee]

warm up laps would make the session even longer though, use the 1st outing as a warm up instead

[Colonelk]

I personally found it all to be excellent. The only thing with the box stop was that people didnt realise they had to pull out straight away in order to finish? Or thats how it seemed from when we watched. I could see issues with it if someone had brake issues coming into it, but I for one found it rather fun haha!

Obviously Id prefer the track to remain in a more open format for next year rather than autotest style, however Id understand if it had to change.

Too many cones on track? Not really, the whole "oooh the cones made us go around the chicane" excuse myself and Bigperm were using was just down to it being more fun the other way haha!
It was good to be steering round the 'pothole' as well

I think the classes were fair also

Smaller sessions would be a no-no for me (although I'm working on improved cooling as we speak!) as the car already had the 'tick of death' by the end of my second run.

Thanks again for allowing me out to play at lunchtime, I turned everything up to 11 to try and put on a good show, was a bit ragged to begin with but then found my stride. Was GUTTED not to get out on track with Declan but hey ho, thems the breaks.

I know the session times slipped, would it be worth putting the first session on track (as in parked up ready to go) for 9.45 so that we can all be briefed and what not in time for the 10am start that Haynes are allowed? Also, maybe worth admitting that the sessions do take a bit longer and just allowing more time per session (ie less session scheduled for the whole day)?

Aside from that, thanks again for your work organising and running the day chap I had epic amounts of fun

[bstardchild]

Aug 10, 2010 13:24:32 GMT alolympic said:

A great feature of the day and a real focus point making it much more than just a static car show.

Agreed it certainly gives it a double element that a lot of car shows don't have

Aug 10, 2010 13:24:32 GMT alolympic said:

Track Layout - again, works fine. Only suggestion would be to have the finish (timing line) maybe 20 feet back up the straight from the current stop box. The lap would be timed to this end point, but the drivers would then have to come to a full stop at the end of the current box.

No timing will ever be allowed - we can only use a points based system.

Aug 10, 2010 13:24:32 GMT alolympic said:

Only other suggestion is I think it would be great to have 2 warm up, parade laps, with no overtaking, for each group. This would help get at least some warmth into the tyres and allow people to get a feel for the layout. Could this get past the regs somehow?

Probably not - it's a test track and it's quite clear that to comply there must not be more than one car on track at any time

[Hitch]

This was my first time on any track and I really enjoyed it! The layout and cones felt spot on. I wasn't too keen on the box stop personallybut understand the need for a controlled finish so how about stopping on the finish line? Also I was inthe final two sessions and preferred the bigger one as it's nice to have a breather between laps, I was roasting in that helmet after each one.

[bstardchild]

Aug 10, 2010 13:39:58 GMT Colonelk said:

I personally found it all to be excellent. The only thing with the box stop was that people didnt realise they had to pull out straight away in order to finish? Or thats how it seemed from when we watched. I could see issues with it if someone had brake issues coming into it, but I for one found it rather fun haha!

Hence the need to have the rest of the pre staged cars backed up against the bank in order to give a clear line of additional E-braking/shift down area in the event of brake issue - safety has to be first in the layout of the track. I wasn't amused by some of the pre-stage area activitys after a certain car finished but we had words and the behaviour became more sedate in that area.

Aug 10, 2010 13:39:58 GMT Colonelk said:

Obviously Id prefer the track to remain in a more open format for next year rather than autotest style, however Id understand if it had to change.

Just looking (like last year similar thread) for ideas and opinions on the event from both participants and watchers - nothing is a given for next year and nothing is ruled out either

Aug 10, 2010 13:39:58 GMT Colonelk said:

Too many cones on track? Not really, the whole "oooh the cones made us go around the chicane" excuse myself and Bigperm were using was just down to it being more fun the other way haha!
It was good to be steering round the 'pothole' as well

I really chuckled after having briefed the groups that if people wanted to drift they could avoid the coned chicane (I didn't fancy the clean up and time delay after they all got punted all over the place) but you, Declan and Ray all used it and drifted and not a cone was moved

I hit the same cone at the "pot hole area" twice on my runs but I'd rather have orange stripes on the rear quarter than suspension damage - I hit it as slow speed on the sat afternoon set up and it really throws the car in a corner

Aug 10, 2010 13:39:58 GMT Colonelk said:

Smaller sessions would be a no-no for me (although I'm working on improved cooling as we speak!) as the car already had the 'tick of death' by the end of my second run.

Thanks again for allowing me out to play at lunchtime, I turned everything up to 11 to try and put on a good show, was a bit ragged to begin with but then found my stride. Was GUTTED not to get out on track with Declan but hey ho, thems the breaks.

I know but we just ran out of time - and I think tyres too

Aug 10, 2010 13:39:58 GMT Colonelk said:

I know the session times slipped, would it be worth putting the first session on track (as in parked up ready to go) for 9.45 so that we can all be briefed and what not in time for the 10am start that Haynes are allowed? Also, maybe worth admitting that the sessions do take a bit longer and just allowing more time per session (ie less session scheduled for the whole day)?

Great idea - why didn't we do this - ahh I remember - we wanted to bring the cars in but we were one missing - he was in a queue waiting to get into the event............... now who was that ;D

[bstardchild]

Aug 10, 2010 13:18:02 GMT jonkheer said:

I liked some changes that were made this year, like the cone chicane on the second lap, and I do understand why the cones in the hairpin are there, but I still prefer cutting that corner

Glad you like some of the changes

I think had you cut it you would be saying we should cone it - it's a nasty hole and would have only got deeper like it did last year

Aug 10, 2010 13:18:02 GMT jonkheer said:

I only have mixed feelings about the box stop; I thought it was less safe than last year (imagine someone blocking their brakes and crashing in the waiting cars), and I think a flying finish is more exciting for the driver.. not in the last place because I messed it up two times if I remember corectly

We didn't have a brake failure issue although that huge white american car locked up on the approach to the stop went sideways and never touched a single cone

We would have never been allowed a flying finish in that direction towards the pre-staged cars but we can look at track layout for next time - thats what this thread is all about

[cobblers]

I liked the track layout this year, but again the "stop, the start again to finish" finish felt a bit odd and its hard to judge a "complete" stop VS a "very nearly almost" stop when you're braking hard (from the top of second which was 65mph in my case).

I suspect I didn't quite stop on my first two runs, and the car cut out on the last one when I made sure I'd 100% stopped (It doesn't like idling, hence me turning it off on the start line!) so I had to start the curse word up again before I could get out of the box!

Perhaps have the official "end of lap" be when the vehicle is stationary in the box, rather than when it stops, then exits the box. It wouldn't feel so awkward then!

That top corner is a LOT sharper than it looks. I'd personally have liked to do 2 sets of 4 laps instead of 3 sets of two - Two laps wasn't enough to get into the "swing" of it IMO. It could also speed up the groups a little (less shuffling round) while allowing people just as much or a little more time on track.

But then that's me, who's used to just getting on track and coming off when either me or the passenger starts to feel sick!

[cobblers]

Perhaps something like this:


Red being the "first" lap, green being the last lap. The lines across could be where the start and end of the session is "observed". Start line staying where it is
It would mean less manouvering in the staging area (cars returning off would arrive at the back of the queue) and the cars would be able to have a flying finish, but not aiming at the people queing up!

[kee]

problem with that is cutting the light beam twice in 1 lap.
instead of that, the existing start line could be the finish as per last year and the start line could be along the bottom, where the green line ends.

[Colonelk]

Aug 10, 2010 13:39:58 GMT Colonelk said:

I know the session times slipped, would it be worth putting the first session on track (as in parked up ready to go) for 9.45 so that we can all be briefed and what not in time for the 10am start that Haynes are allowed? Also, maybe worth admitting that the sessions do take a bit longer and just allowing more time per session (ie less session scheduled for the whole day)?

Great idea - why didn't we do this - ahh I remember - we wanted to bring the cars in but we were one missing - he was in a queue waiting to get into the event............... now who was that ;D

Ahem... err.... *whistles innocently* errr.... I blame Keefy for putting me in the slowest queing lane hahahaha (only joking Keefy!)

And no worries about all the others, just trying to analyse the whole event You KNOW I was a happy man haha

[EmDee]

I thought it was FANTASTIC, had to wait a bit to get on, but that will always be unavoidable. The layout was great, the crowd and the marshalls were great and every thing was easy to understand.

Aug 10, 2010 14:07:24 GMT bstardchild said:

We didn't have a brake failure issue although that huge white american car locked up on the approach to the stop went sideways and never touched a single cone

That would be my only critiscism since my somewhat dainty pride and joy was parked about 5 feet away from where that rather large Dodge managed to stop. Had spare pants in the tent though.