Chevy V8's.....

[Aydena]

I was given an idea in the pub last week for an engine conversion,
I don't want to disclose the vehicle just yet, however the engine suggested was a Chevy 350cu V8...... Having looked for one it came to me that i have absolutely no idea about them.

My question is this, is there more than one type of chevy 350cu V8 ? and which one is the best to go for.......

I'm not particularly great at putting pics up...so a couple of V8's....





Cheers

[akku]

several Chevy engines have a displacement of or about 350 cubic inches but most people are referring to the first generation small block V8 350.

It is the world's most popular engine. I forget how many millions of them have been built since 1954 when they started casting them for the '55 model cars. There is nothing you can't get for one.

Contrary to well held opinion you don't have to cut up a rare Opel to get one, you can get them ready to build from Real Steel and also many other sources.

They weigh a reasonable amount as stock as they are old school heavy castings. You can lose a lot of that weight with alloy manifold, heads, water pump, tube headers, etc.

Pretty much everyone will tell you "its a Corvette engine" but most are not. 70s van smog motors will give a low revving 150 BHP or something. But all of them can be built the same way.

Don't get too excited about getting one with 4 bolt mains. If you want serious power adder or whatever then go with an aftermarket block in the first place.

[harris66]

and make sure you don't buy a 305 or one of the various other displacements that look the same as a 350, not that theres owt wrong with them, but if its a 350 you want, just be carefull to check thats what it is -)

[Frankenhealey]

I forget how many millions of them have been built since 1954

Over 30 million and still being built as Goodwrench engines. Not so heavy either if your project is to replace a 50's motor. My 6.3 litre is lighter than the 2660cc Austin four banger it replaces! Lots of info on the various capacities and history here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_small-block_engine

[Dez]

as AK says, they're brilliant engines.

don't get too fixated on actually getting a 350 though, you pay a premium for one when something like a 283 or 302 is just as good, and doesnt produce much less power (out of the box anyway). i actually prefer the 3" stroke engines as they're a bit revvier and feel livelier to drive.

[VIP]

Jul 19, 2011 9:11:56 GMT Dez said:

as AK says, they're brilliant engines.

don't get too fixated on actually getting a 350 though, you pay a premium for one when something like a 283 or 302 is just as good, and doesnt produce much less power (out of the box anyway). I actually prefer the 3" stroke engines as they're a bit revvier and feel livelier to drive.

Interesting, Dez.

What are the differences between the Chevy 305 and the Olds 307, and would I be better off getting the Olds 307 'built' rather than switching out to a Chevy 350?

[stealthstylz]

305's are curse word for tuning Dan, they're small bore/long stroke (3.740" x 3.480") so don't rev as well, plus the bore is so small you can't go much bigger with the valves.

283's and 302's are both on 3" stroke with bigger bore (3.875" on 283, 4" on 302) so a much better performance setup with more upgrades available.

Matt

[VIP]

Jul 19, 2011 11:12:03 GMT stealthstylz said:

305's are curse word for tuning Dan, they're small bore/long stroke (3.740" x 3.480") so don't rev as well, plus the bore is so small you can't go much bigger with the valves.

283's and 302's are both on 3" stroke with bigger bore (3.875" on 283, 4" on 302) so a much better performance setup with more upgrades available.

Matt

Cheers Matt, I got a bit confused, as I have a Chevy 305 in my 79 Cutlass [Canadian-built car]. The engine from the Hurst is an Olds 307 H/O, but doing some very quick research these aren't very tunable either!

[akku]

OK, rarely do I disagree with Dez, but I'm going to do so in part now.

The default size of SBC is 350 inches. There are a whole lot of 305s out there too but 350 is kinda "default". Go with it.

The only 302 SBC was a rare homologation option special order engine offered in 1968-9 to get the Z/28 Camaro legal for the 305 and under class in Trans Am racing. If you have a 302 Chevy sell it for a pile of megabucks to someone restoring or cloning a '69 Camaro Trans Am type car. To get a 302 any other way involves you taking a 327 or 350 Chevy and fitting a new crank. You may find the engine is more willing to rev if you do this but you just gave away about 17% or 18% displacement.

If you want to pull the crank then what I would do is buy one of the many good quality light weight aero-windaged stroker cranks and built a good 383. You can get the reciprocating weight low and this will offset the fact you have more arm to swing. You'll find that revs up real nice too and guess what - gives you a stonking pile more torque.

[akku]

Jul 19, 2011 11:12:03 GMT stealthstylz said:

305's are curse word for tuning

tiny bore, long stroke and guess what they now sell a stroker kit for these (331 IIRC) which will just make things worse.

The number of people who tell me they have a 302 when they have a 305 is really annoying. Almost as annoying as the people who tell you that a cheap upgrade is to put a 350 crank in a 305. The stroke is identical. FFS. Some people need to be hit upside the head with a 331 stroker crank.

305s can be built but don't waste a lot of money on 305-specific parts. putting a set of factory ZZ4 or perhaps the Vortec heads will work well, I've seen both done, they can use the stock valves in these heads without notching anything and without too much shrouding. So I am told. A mild cam, dual plane and headers and you will wake it up OK but it will be 25% down on power (or more) than a decent 350 built the same way. Depending on the base compression of the 350 you start with.

I wouldn't buy a 305. If I bought a car and it had one in it then I might do some tweaks while I got around to getting a 350 (as a 383...) built for it.

[akku]

Jul 19, 2011 11:21:07 GMT VIP said:

Cheers Matt, I got a bit confused, as I have a Chevy 305 in my 79 Cutlass [Canadian-built car]. The engine from the Hurst is an Olds 307 H/O, but doing some very quick research these aren't very tunable either!

307 Olds is a small bore & stroke version of the 350 Olds. Its just a low deck version of the 425/455 "big block". Your problem is that to help save weight Oldsmobile windowed the main cap support casting on the 307, 403 and later versions of the 350. This means girdling and all sorts is needed to make any power with them or to rev them hard. The windowing weakens the casting and the mains break away under extreme duty.

If you don't mind either limiting the RPM to like 5000 or reinforcing the block at the base point there then you can use any of the hi-po Olds heads, intakes, cams, headers, etc. as they all fit right up.

The 307 Olds is a better engine than the 305 Chevy as it is more efficient and lower emissions - that has to be down to head design I guess. Thats why the 307 was retained for all carb applications in all GM RWD platforms. It could pass smog and the carb'd Chevy could not.

However this is cold comfort when most any other engine is a better bet than either LOL.

None of the smogger engines are a brilliant bet for performance.

[whitbykustompaul]

Mines only a 283ci but its over bored to a 289ci. Its a whole heep of fun. Who needs a top dollar 350 anyway?!?!!

[e21meister]

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I take it the 1950s/60s/70s V8s from Olds, Pontiac, Buick & Cadillac are completely different designs? Are there any interchangable parts?

[akku]

see, a 350 shouldn't be a "top dollar" last one I bought was a proper 4 bolt mains job and it cost me £500 delivered from Sheffield complete carb to pan. It came with a TH350 box for that as well as all the front end stuff. When I got it fired up in the car it had a sticky lifter but that was about it. Real Steel are doing them for about £550 as cut-outs.

Sure a 283 is a fair enough motor if you have one there sitting in your car, but if I was given the choice of buying a 283 for £300 or a 350 for £500 its a no-brainer to buy the 350 IMO.

Same as a Powerglide is OK if you have one, but if I was buying a trans I'd get a 3 speed at least, yeah?

Unless I was building a period correct rod in which case I would actively be seeking a 283 with double humps and rams horns & powerglide (or 3 on the tree) for the proper period build

AMAZO - you are correct. Those 50s engines are completely different. Nothing swaps over. Ford is the worst. In a space of like a decade they built engines of the same or similar displacement from completely families. There is the 352 FE, 351 Cleveland, 351M and 351 Windsor. With the big motors there was a 410, 427, 428, 429 and 430 which are all suitably different... Oh, and the 400M as well...

There's more in it than I can put in one post. But Ford's V8s are flatheads upto the mid 50s, then Y blocks, then there is the MEL V8 which is the first big block (Mercury,Edsel,Lincoln) which carries on through mid 60s. Ford gets the WIndsor (small block) V8 260, 289, 302 and the FE (Ford Engine) which was the big block (352, 390, 410, 427, 428) and then the Lima V8 (429, 460) the Windsor gets a tall deck version (351) then the Cleveland which is a 351 ony in the USA but a 302 in Aus too, the Modifieds which are 351 and 400 and then the Modular V8 as a 4.6, 5.4 and now 5.0

Mopar is easy... There are two families of Hemi V8 in the 50s. Both different and various capacities. Then the Polyhead V8 comes out which is a 318, but this is replaced by the 318 LA which is a bigger version of the 273 LA, also known as the Commando Engine. Later there was a 340 and 360. These engines become the Magnum series. The big blocks are all either a B block or RB (raised deck B block). B blocks are 361, 383 or 400. RBs come as 383, 413 and 440. There was a 426 wedge and a 426 hemi, Then there are the modern V8s and "new" Hemi V8... Dodge, Plymouth, DeSoto, Chrysler and Imperial all share the same motors from the 60s up.

Chevy kicks off with the Gen 1 small block in 1955, comes as 262, 265, 283, 302, 305, 307, 327, 350 and 400 variously by year and application joined by the W motor which came over from the trucks, 348 and 409. The big block came out in the mid 60s as 396, 402, 427 and 454 inches. The 305 Chevy finds itself in a few odd applications...

Pontiac had a 289 V8 in the 50s which is replaced by the 326, 350, 389, 400, 428, 455 series. There is also a 301 version of this engine which came in the late 70s but it has a number of differences which means little interchanges and they generally suck for performance applications.

Buick had two series of "nailhead" V8 - the early ones in the 50s and the 60s 401/425 type. These were joined by the all alloy 215 in 1961 which became the Rover V8 in 1968, For 1964 the 215 became a 300 and was cast iron with optionally alloy heads. In 1966 the 300 was joined by the 340 which was a whole new bottom end but the same (iron) head design. by 1968 an all new 350 Buick small block was in production. They call it continual improvement, you can call it confusing. The Nailhead was replaced by the Big Block Buick which was a 400 (rare) 430 or 455. These were superceded in Buick cars by Oldsmobile engines from about 1980 and lead to the"Rocketgate" law suit where Buick buyers sued GM because they said they'd been ripped because their Buick didn't have a Buick motor in it...

Olds brought the original Rocket V8 out in like 1951 or so, there are variations of this until 1964 when the new rocket (aka Super Rocket) comes out which ends up being thebig block and small block Olds. Its basically the same engine in two deck heights. It comes as 330, 400, 425, 350, 455, 307 and 403 in approximate chronological order. These were used as "corporate replacement engines" in Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac and even some Chevy cars. This causes a ton more confusion. Oldsmobile also had their own version of the Buick 215 and offered it with a turbo as far back as 1962. It has a number of production differences to the Buick/Rover version though.

There is a rumour of a Pontiac version of the all alloy V8 but there is apparently no documentary evidence of it ever being fitted in a production car. So I read anyway.

Oldsmobile also had a version of the Cadillac Northstar V8 in a smaller capacity (3.5 and 4.0 IIRC) which is called the Southstar.

Cadillac had their own V8s in the 50s, then there is the 390 which ends in 1963, the one year only 1964 390 and then the 429 after that. These are related to the 390s. From 1968 on the famous Big Block Caddy comes out and this is in 472 and 500 versions until Cadillac downsize in 1977 and then a 425 comes out, and the displacement-on-demand 368 version. This was replaced by the DISASTEROUS 4100HT engine which has an alloy block,iron heads and a chocolate crank. This spawns a 4500 and 4900 version. These were replaced by the Northstar.

The only "GM Corporate" engines are the LT series (also known as 2nd gen small block Chevy) and the 3rd/4th gen V8 which is all alloy and includes the famous LS1 and other great performance motors and is installed in Pontiac G8, Buick Roadmaster, Holden Statesman, Cadillac CTS, Escalade, Chevy Corvette, Chevy Camaro, Suburban, GMC Denali, Hummer H2 and so forth...

AMC had thier own V8 as a 290, 304, 344, 360, 390 and 401 which is unrelated to the Packard and Studebaker derived V8s it replaced.

All of the above is deliverately vague. Its to give you te idea rather than be an exhaustive refference work!

[Lankytim]

I'm reading all of this with interest as i'm considering sticking a Rover V8 and manual box in my Volvo 240... I think i'll stick with the rover engine!

[fannywhacker]

they are cheap. I just bought a 350 Goodwrench for £1600. Not from Real Steal.

[akku]

I only mention Real Steel as they have stock and publish a price on the cut outs. There are plenty of other sources of 2nd hand or new V8s. I'm aware some people don't recommend Real Steel.

Lankytim - I used to go on a forum where a couple of guys had Volvos with the 302 Ford in. Seems a good swap. There is a company in the US does a fitting kit to drop a SBC (305 or 350) into a 740/760.

Rover V8 is a fine engine for being a cruiser and making the right V8 noise but I'd be tempted to put a Ford in it. Got to be the same effort to do it either way and the Ford will be seriously more poke.

[Lewis]

Real Steel will tell you that their used engines are for 'rebuild only', mind, not going concerns. Almost £500 is a big chunk of change to drop on an unknown. I guess you can at least look it over first but still.....

Saying that, buying any used engine is always a gamble

[Lankytim]

I did a little reading up and Ford 302's do look very tempting as they are smaller than a rover V8 and so should fit more easily, seem to be more reliable and as you say more power too.. The problem is finding an engine and manual gearbox in the right price range (i.e cheap!) As a V8 N00b i'm reluctant to dabble with yank V8's as I know nothing about them.

A used RV8 and Rover SD1 gearbox will be easier to get hold of and far more likely to about for the right money.

Jul 19, 2011 20:39:08 GMT akku said:

Lankytim - I used to go on a forum where a couple of guys had Volvos with the 302 Ford in. Seems a good swap. There is a company in the US does a fitting kit to drop a SBC (305 or 350) into a 740/760.

Rover V8 is a fine engine for being a cruiser and making the right V8 noise but I'd be tempted to put a Ford in it. Got to be the same effort to do it either way and the Ford will be seriously more poke.

[Deleted]

Alistairk, any views on what to do if you`d happen to have a Pontiac 301 engine, and had to use that engine to even be allowed to V8 a car? Got approval to put one in my Commodore, but just barely, as its even a bit over the maximum torque for the commodore... But i reckon a little tuning is in order anyway...