Sinky
Posted a lot
Run Baby Run......Please!
Posts: 1,395
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Jul 27, 2011 19:14:12 GMT
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Straight to the point pay or no pay My old 1988 bike.I no longer have the vehicle.It was on a SORN up untill april 2011 . Sat outside my mums house in the uk and eventually got stripped to bits by thiefs then my neighbours chucked the engine and frame in a builders skip.GONE! Iv lost the ppw. I live abroad and I'm only back to visit my old mum 4 times a year. P.S It was a heap off #### what do you think
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2001 Volvo XC70 wagon
2003 Piaggio X9 Evo
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Jul 27, 2011 19:26:59 GMT
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Have you tried writing to them already?
If you've got the balls I think it would be technically possible to refuse to play the civil game and say you're not paying a penny until they can prove in court that you were avoiding paying tax and using the bike on the road.
You can also tell them the truth about what happened in the same letter. i.e. that the bike didn't exist and you were out of the country. Being out of the country is a fair defence if you can prove it with entry / exit paperwork. You wouldn't have received the renewal.
The fact that you were out of the country really puts them on the back foot because you couldn't have been using the bike if you weren't here.
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bl1300
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,678
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Jul 27, 2011 19:27:02 GMT
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Well if it was stripped by thieves was it reported to the police? You may be able to go from that angle. Best too speak to your local Citizens Advice really.
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Current fleet.
1967 DAF 44 1974 VW Beetle 1303s 1975 Triumph Spitfire MkIV 1988 VW LT45 Beavertail 1998 Volvo V70 2.5 1959 Fordson Dexta
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Jul 27, 2011 19:29:15 GMT
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Unless you have a couple of days spare to wait in the centre and you want to sit in front of some wet wringing his hands saying there's not much you can do then I would avoid going to the citizens advice. Total waste of time. Everyone recommends it but I've been and it was rubbish. Got to try everything once I suppose!
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2011 7:36:50 GMT by ejenner
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crazymonkey
Posted a lot
ummm....what was I doing again???
Posts: 1,981
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Jul 27, 2011 19:34:27 GMT
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as said best bet I reckon would be to write a letter to them explaining the situation that you were out of the country and it was stripped and no longer exists. Then go from there.
I had a similar experience with the police saying that my car had been involved in a hit and run (put simply car parked next to us, she noticed a scratch and dent when she got back and we got the blame because there was a scuff on my bumper which was there when I bought it) wrote a few stern, informative letters and everything dropped. don't know how the DVLA compare to police (probably 1000x worse lol) but its a good starting point at least.
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whoever said dogs were man's best friend....obviously never heard of cable ties
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Jul 27, 2011 19:44:45 GMT
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I did have to pay a SORN fine once. I argued for months but there was no getting round it. A similar situation where the car had been scrapped long before the SORN had expired.
All you have to do is tick a box and send them the form back. Not difficult. But I had forgot / was not up to speed on the way they had changed the system so I got caught out.
I paid using a mixture of coins in odd amounts, I included foreign coins and I wrapped them up in lots of individual little bags, I overpaid slightly as well. I was just trying to annoy them a bit. I knew at the other end some chunt who worked for the DVLA would have to sort it all out so at least they would feel a little pain.
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Jul 27, 2011 19:51:28 GMT
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I paid using a mixture of coins in odd amounts, I included foreign coins and I wrapped them up in lots of individual little bags, I overpaid slightly as well. I was just trying to annoy them a bit. I knew at the other end some chunt who worked for the DVLA would have to sort it all out so at least they would feel a little pain. As a fan of people giving bureaucracy as good as they get, I salute you! You, Sir, are my hero today. ;D
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Jul 27, 2011 20:36:48 GMT
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My experience of telling them "no I won't pay, i sold the car and told you, take me to court if you don't believe me" was that the next correspondence came from the leg breakers.
The best way of dealing with the DVLA is a tactical nuclear strike on Swansea.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Jul 27, 2011 21:13:04 GMT
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Depends how honest you want to be. If you want to come clean and admit a genuine mistake in not SORNing or de-registering the bike, then pay the fine and get the paperwork sorted out. If you want to try and get off the hook, write back to the DVLA and claim you declared the bike scrapped by filling in the V5C and returning it to them. They will then claim they never received it [which would be true] and ask you to provide the confirmation of receipt letter they would have sent you [which you won't have]. You can then respond that are under no obligation to chase up the DVLA and ensure they have done their job properly, and as far as you are concerned the matter was dealt with as soon as you put the V5C in the postbox with the correct address and postage stamps attached [see the Interpretations Act 1978: Section 7 - References to service by post]. Like I said, it all depends on how honest you feel, and if you believe in karma!
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crazymonkey
Posted a lot
ummm....what was I doing again???
Posts: 1,981
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Jul 27, 2011 22:35:30 GMT
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I was thinking that idea of telling them you posted it but didnt want anyone to get in trouble. But like you said if they took it to court the court would agree that once its posted its no longer your problem and unless they can prove you didnt (which is highly unlikely) then there's not much they can do. Is it any wonder DVLA have had parcel bombs sent to them But if you did choose to pay the fine then the coins method does seem quite entertaining. Wonder if theyd threaten to take you to court if you purposely made it a penny short ;D
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whoever said dogs were man's best friend....obviously never heard of cable ties
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Jul 27, 2011 23:05:00 GMT
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I have 3 of them from when we had the bad snow in winter they never got my v5's its nearly a year later they are not getting a penny from me before we go through court.
Am quite happy to take the day of work and go to court over the matter, as 1 was an insurance write of, onewas sold and the new owner has all but given up trying to get a v5 from them, last was stripped and crushed, so good luck finding any of them now
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Some days you just need to take a grinder to an inanimate object, just to make your day a tiny bit better!!
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PMSL at the coin idea, i reckon individually wrapping them in parcel tape too
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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The coin thing is petty and just makes some poor buggers crummy job that bit more crummy - achieves nothing.
You can claim you posted it and it never made it to them, this works, I've done it, and it works because the DVLA know the Post Office is nearly as incompetent as they are.
However you need to get new paperwork and get it sorted properly or you'll keep having to redeclare it SORN every 12 months.
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sinjon
Part of things
Posts: 46
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I was recantly told that the dvla cant enforce fines and have been told to stop issuing fines as only a court can issue a fine and enforce it.
which sort of backs up my step son, he got a fine for suposidly not declairing a car sorn its been almost 2 years now, he refuses to pay and he just keeps getting the same letter pay or court, well he hasnt payed and he hasnt gone to court. i was told its just bully tactics to scare people into paying.
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2.9 sierra xr4x4
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petem
Part of things
Posts: 71
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DVLA tried taking me to court over "failure to notify" rules. Lots of "You will be fined up to £1000" stuff. Go to court, they'll come up to you 'for a chat' before you go into the courtroom itself.
Point out to them that you have no legal requirement to do anything once you've posted a letter to them as once a stamped addressed envelope is in a post box it is legally 'served' and the DVLA would have to prove that you didn't send it - which they can't do. Their "contact us after 28 days" bit is rubbish as they don't state how long after 28 days, and they'd have to change millions of logbooks to change the wording.
They'll drop it. Make sure you do your homework first, but they dropped their case against me when they tried a similar stunt in May.
Most DVLA fines are based on making a quick buck out of the gullible.
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'99 Legnum VR-4 Type S Ralliart
'79 Escort 1300 Sport - long term project.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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I was recantly told that the dvla cant enforce fines and have been told to stop issuing fines as only a court can issue a fine and enforce it. which sort of backs up my step son, he got a fine for suposidly not declairing a car sorn its been almost 2 years now, he refuses to pay and he just keeps getting the same letter pay or court, well he hasnt payed and he hasnt gone to court. I was told its just bully tactics to scare people into paying. Technically you are right, the only body that can issue a 'fine' is a Court of Law, or an officer under appointment, such as a Fixed Penalty Notice from a Police Officer. However, you'll find that nowhere in the DVLA text does it call if a 'fine', it's a Penalty Charge, or - in essence - an Invoice. Anyone can legally issue an Invoice.
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2011 9:25:47 GMT by VIP
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Jul 28, 2011 10:14:15 GMT
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However, you'll find that nowhere in the DVLA text does it call if a 'fine', it's a Penalty Charge, or - in essence - an Invoice. Anyone can legally issue an Invoice. Is the DVLA "invoice" legally enforceable ? After all an invoice is bill for goods shipped or services rendered - of which a Sorn "fine" is neither. Paul H
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MWF
Posted a lot
Posts: 2,945
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Jul 28, 2011 11:08:46 GMT
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However, you'll find that nowhere in the DVLA text does it call if a 'fine', it's a Penalty Charge, or - in essence - an Invoice. Anyone can legally issue an Invoice. Is the DVLA "invoice" legally enforceable ? After all an invoice is bill for goods shipped or services rendered - of which a Sorn "fine" is neither. Paul H Could be classed as an administrative charge, however businesses are expected to charge in accordance with what it realistically costs them in administration.
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Jul 28, 2011 11:14:04 GMT
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However, you'll find that nowhere in the DVLA text does it call if a 'fine', it's a Penalty Charge, or - in essence - an Invoice. Anyone can legally issue an Invoice. Is the DVLA "invoice" legally enforceable ? After all an invoice is bill for goods shipped or services rendered - of which a Sorn "fine" is neither. Paul H The DVLA are effectively Invoicing someone a charge for failing to comply with the Terms of a Contract. There will be various Terms of Contract regarding changes to the details on the V5C/Driving Licence/Vehicle, and if you fail to notify them on any of these aspects, it's classed as failing to uphold the Terms of Contract, hence the charge. You can be taken to court for failure to pay an Invoice, and herein lies the problem. The DVLA cannot enforce the Invoice payment without going through a Court of Law, and the Court of Law will not grant enforcement without sufficient evidence to say that the Invoice is justified. Therefore, to prove that the Invoice is justified, the DVLA have to prove that the Terms of Contract have been broken, which they cannot do, since they cannot prove that you did not post them the relevant documentation. Whether they received it or not is irrelevant. Non-receipt is not proof of non-sending.
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Last Edit: Jul 28, 2011 11:15:05 GMT by VIP
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VIP
South East
Posts: 8,293
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Jul 28, 2011 11:16:39 GMT
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Is the DVLA "invoice" legally enforceable ? After all an invoice is bill for goods shipped or services rendered - of which a Sorn "fine" is neither. Paul H Could be classed as an administrative charge, however businesses are expected to charge in accordance with what it realistically costs them in administration. An Admin Charge is still an Invoice, and still needs to go through a Court of Law to be enforceable. That's why if someone doesn't pay a Bill [Invoice], they get taken to Court to enforce the payment.
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