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I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Jul 26, 2006 16:48:28 GMT
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this buisness about showing v5's at races is not the answer (specially for old classics) as most will have been laid up somewhere for some years in a barn garden etc.. so many don't have the v5, So you are saying that it shouldnt be raced? Sorry but it IS pretty simple. It doesn't matter how long a car has been rottining away in a field/barn/shed. The new owner can always get a V5 for it by applying to the DVLA. Always. If you get a rotter with no V5, then get one. No V5 no race seems pretty simple. I'm certainly not anti banger. If a banger racer wants to take out the last remaining example of any car then fine. It's their car, I don't have a problem with that. But please make sure it IS your car!
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Jul 26, 2006 16:51:59 GMT
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its nice that you are all sooo intent on 'helping' banger racers from purchasing stolen goods. Yes two rare classics have been raced wich is terrible , what about the vw just gone in stolen section thats no racer, i think you need to have a look at preventing thefts from your own scene (many classics stolen by other classic enthusiasts) before trying to change ours
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Jul 26, 2006 16:57:50 GMT
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Lets be honest its not terribly difficult to get a V5 even for something thats been laid up for 25 years, you fill out the form, pay your £20, wait 6 weeks or so, and lo and behold here's your V5 (Providing the car is legit). So whats the big problem? There isn't one man. Anyone who objects strongly to that surely a) has got something to hide, b) is bone idle or c) does not think that stolen classics getting bangered is owt to worry about.
These organisers ought to be noting VINs and banning anyone who races a car which turns out to be stolen, no-one could say that was unfair, but i'd say the chances of it happeing are about 0.000000000001%, which is a fuggin disgrace and all the excuse anyone needs to diss banger racers whenever they want i'd say.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Jul 26, 2006 17:03:00 GMT
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its nice that you are all sooo intent on 'helping' banger racers from purchasing stolen goods. Yes two rare classics have been raced wich is terrible , what about the vw just gone in stolen section thats no racer, i think you need to have a look at preventing thefts from your own scene (many classics stolen by other classic enthusiasts) before trying to change ours "Yeah stuff gets nicked everywhere all the time, its normal, so just leave banger racing alone" FFS same old story. Head/sand etc etc.
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1972 Fiat 130 1985 Talbot Alpine 1974 Lancia Beta Saloon 1975 + 1986 Mazda 929 Koop + Wagon 1982 Fiat Argenta 2.0 iniezione elettronica 1977 Toyota Carina TA14 BEST CAR EVER!!!!!!!! 1979 Datsun B310 Sunny 4-dr 1984 Audi 200 Quattro Turbo 1983 Honda Accord 1.6 DX GONE1989 Alfa 75 2.0 TS Mr T says: TREAT YO MOTHER RIGHT!
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Jul 26, 2006 17:08:16 GMT
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its nice that you are all sooo intent on 'helping' banger racers from purchasing stolen goods. Yes two rare classics have been raced wich is terrible , what about the vw just gone in stolen section thats no racer, i think you need to have a look at preventing thefts from your own scene (many classics stolen by other classic enthusiasts) before trying to change ours I think that sums it all up. For me, this thread is a dead duck.
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If Typhoo put the Tea in Britain who put the c**t in Scunthorpe?
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Jul 26, 2006 17:10:43 GMT
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'The appetite of the banger to find ever more rare and unusual tin to race means that fewer of these cars could be stolen without its documents IF the suggested course of action be followed.'
Just out of interest, in any of the three cases raised (Datsun/PC Granny/Plymouth) do we actually know the car was stolen specifically to be raced? At least in the case of the Plymouth, it seems the car was offered to a banger racer for a small amount. Putting aside for a moment the 'he should have realised something was up' argument, would it still have been stolen even if we could guarantee that it wouldn't be raced? I think it would. In the same way that there are unscrupulous banger racers, there are also unscrupulous scrappies or even classic car enthusiasts who won't turn down a ton and a half of steel or a V8 for peanuts, and if the people who nicked the car can get some beer money for it they won't care who they sell it to.
Having said that, something should be done about stolen cars being raced, just to narrow the options available for moving on the cars. The idea of a newsletter with details of stolen cars is a good one, I reckon.
V5s/VINs? Hmm. A few more problems that I can immediately see, despite not being a racer:
- Where are the VIN plates? On my car, there's one that's immediately obvious - right behind the headlight. What happens if someone uses the car, it gets a bit bent, but they can still use it for another meeting? It wouldn't surprise me if the VIN would be illegible if the front got a bit crumpled. There's probably another one somewhere, but without 15 minutes with some ramps and a torch it's probably a lost cause. 15 minutes x 50 cars = impossible. - The wait to get a V5. One person I know who races has very little space for stock. He can probably keep two cars at any one time, which means that things get bought and then raced about a week later. Not enough time to get a V5 in his name. Pog's suggestion of a receipt in lieu of a V5 would work - but how would you check them? And what happens if the seller puts false details on it?
I appreciate neither of these are insurmountable problems, but they'd probably put a lot of people off racing. Less people racing = less meetings and less exciting = less money for the promoters = the sport slowly dying.
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Jul 26, 2006 17:13:44 GMT
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its all very well saying that v5s should be produced on the day how many of you have written a letter to promotions explaining the reasons for it etc... see what response you get.
actions speak louder than words
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Jul 26, 2006 17:21:37 GMT
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its all very well saying that v5s should be produced on the day how many of you have written a letter to promotions explaining the reasons for it etc... see what response you get. actions speak louder than words That's a very good point actually. I sent a few emails out to the online banger community, but didn't get any response (part of the reason I thought they were doing nothing to clear their name), but none to any promoters...do you think they'd listen mk1escortmad? You couldn't help us out with addresses could you?
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Jul 26, 2006 18:34:33 GMT
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Time for me to have a say,i am in both camps here and firstly nobody should be nicking cars to race there is no need for it whatsoever,most racers are involved in the scrap business or know someone that is so cars can be got readily without nicking them,whilst there is a lot of kudos in racing something rare theres none in racing something nicked. The problem of nicked cars getting raced is not a matter for the individual honest racer to sort out but the race promotors after all its the government that deals with crime and immigration etc not us individuals, So the promoters need to sort it out. On the subject of V5s, not a problem i'd say, if you don't get one with the car then apply for it! I have a large collection of classics for racing and using on the road, everyone has a V5, a bit time consuming and costly but better than some chap coming in with the law and saying "thats my motor on the top of that pile" eh. The promoters need to come up with some sort of system to filter out the stolen cars but it wont happen overnight and may well cause a few problems for the 1 or 2 drivers that do race nicked cars,but at least they know then that theres no point in nicking someones pride and joy for thier ten minutes of glory!So lets hope we can resolve the problem and maybe we can all live happily ever after because at the end of the day we have something in common.....cars either polishing them or crashing them and I do both.
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Jul 26, 2006 19:26:19 GMT
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its nice that you are all sooo intent on 'helping' banger racers from purchasing stolen goods. Yes two rare classics have been raced wich is terrible , what about the vw just gone in stolen section thats no racer, i think you need to have a look at preventing thefts from your own scene (many classics stolen by other classic enthusiasts) before trying to change oursWhy the "You and us" attitude? What would you do if someone took your Escort off the road in broad daylight with a grab lorry? It happened to my neighbour's mk2 Granada last summer. Would that change your perspective, if your Escort was on the track and mine was in the car park at Foxhall / Arena etc with your rims on? Come on! This affects all of us! (Did no-one read my earlier post? ;D)
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My fleet: Suzuki GSX-R600Y SRAD with bald, melted tyres A borrowed Mondeo
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Shortcut
Posted a lot
I won't be there when you cross the road, so always use the Green Cross Code.
Posts: 3,037
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Jul 26, 2006 19:27:21 GMT
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Where are the VIN plates? On my car, there's one that's immediately obvious - right behind the headlight. What happens if someone uses the car, it gets a bit bent, but they can still use it for another meeting? It wouldn't surprise me if the VIN would be illegible if the front got a bit crumpled. There's probably another one somewhere, but without 15 minutes with some ramps and a torch it's probably a lost cause. 15 minutes x 50 cars = impossible.
That's apoint but not hard to fix. You could check each car once, when it is first raced. Any cars that survive could be issued with a certificate by the circuit saying it had been checked. I appreciate that this all sounds a bit like hard work but it shouldn't be. Over the years every other form of motorsport has had to put up with stricter regulations, be it for safety or other reasons. Now its banger racings turn. And yes it should be up to the sports organisers not the racers to sort this.
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This space available to rent. Reach literally dozens of people. Cheap rates!
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Jul 26, 2006 20:07:23 GMT
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Yes it would change my perspective, but i wouldnt go around calling all banger racers scum and thieves like a fair few individuals have done on here, that is whats got to me the most, don't forget it is still the minority of classics being sold to drivers to race most are exported, broken for spares, weighed in for quick dosh, theres some gipsys down my way with a hiab lorry what do you think thats for! or stolen by dishonest classic car enthusiasts, bad apples in every trade/sport not just the banger community as is being percieved here
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Jul 26, 2006 21:04:35 GMT
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"a few individuals". exactly. Some people just don't want banger racing. Ignore that. Point have been well made which is that any regualtion needs to come from the promoters. Whos going to be champion then? HotWire? You volunteered?
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jul 26, 2006 21:26:03 GMT
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Anyways...
Any scheme we ***ASK*** banger racers to introduce needs to be logical and easy. Or they won't take to it. Simple as. Producing a V5 doesn't strike me as too difficult. OK for some racers who don't have a lot of storage space it might reduce the number of vehicles available to them if they can't wait 3 weeks for a V5 to turn up. Unfortunately the actions of a dishonest minority have a habit of cocking things up for honest people though.
Also the V5 scheme is not fool proof. It wouldn;t have saved the PC Granada, the orange Mk2 Cortina or any other comon classic you could easily ring. Buy one legally and steal 20 more, you have a legit V5... It would have probably saved the Plymouth and the Datsun though and might make some people think twice.
Of the last 5 cars mentioned on this board stolen - Cortina, Granada, Datsun, Plymouth, Imp we know 4 of them ended up on the banger track. Seems theres three routes a classic will take when nicked - banger, export, back into the classic community.
This thread really is looking at the bangers.
Export is a matter for HM C&E to tighten up on and I believe there has been movement on this but its tricky.
Going back to the classic community is one we do need to work on and is probably a thread for another day. DVLA noting engine numbers of stolen cars and getting them checked at MOT time against the V5 and if it don't match against a stolen register would be a move here... MOT testers already need to get engine numbers/casting numbers to determine the engine type for emissions testing so its not extra work there.
People are very blasse about buying classics, nobody considers it might be nicked or a rebuilt write off yet you'd worry and HPI a 5 year old car... Lack of HPI data for older cars going back is an issue, but still, shouldn;t we all check we're not buying stolen goods...
Just more thoughts...
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Jul 26, 2006 22:30:51 GMT
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I'm new to this forum but thought id have to post as I'm both a classic fan owning a number of old cars but in also a banger driver.
The suggestion that each and every car must have a V5 is simply unworkable, I'm sorry but anyone who has been a part of the banger scene would know this. If every car HAD to have a V5, none would get raced at all. Cars are stored for years, papaerwork is lost, cars are stripped by drivers and stored and later sold to other drivers. The cars I.D is lost long before it gets to the track in most cases. I have raced cars that have been owned by other banger drivers and have been stripped shells, no number plates, no engine, nothing. Basically the car is simply treated as a commodity of scrap metal. No banger driver I know is going to mess about applying for log books. Infact If the car has a log book I ask the seller to send it off as scrap, as some that have been in my name I have had fines though for. As I said, when a banger driver gets a car for racing, its no longer a "road" car with paperwork. Its just a ton or so of scrap. On the other hand, cars that do have log books are often raced and gone long before the new log book in the new keepers name comes though.
As the post before mine states, it would be quite easy to ring a stolen banger so that it had a legitimate I.D, Besides promotors are not going to ask drivers for log books and check VIN numbers, why should they? They are running quite happily thank you, why would they take up their time and money doing something that wouldnt benefit them. To them its money money money. NOTHING else.
I think perhaps the best way is one of the methods already stated. A flyer that goes out to promotions with a list of stolen classics and their vin numbers. That way promotors could target vehcles that fit the description of any stolen instead of checking them all routinely. Theres much more chance of them doing that then checking all of them. Or as has already been suggested, a link up with a banger web site with a page that has pictures and descriptions of stolen cars. Some banger drivers have big mouths, and all it takes is one phone call to the right people. I'm not sure if this problem can be eliminated all together anyway, like alot of other problems I think we can only try to reduce it as much as possible.
I'm sorry for covering ground thats alrady been covered, I think the police could take a more active role. If bent drivers saw the odd copper at a meeting they would think twice before taking along a stolen car.
Ive got a 1963 morris oxford, I know thats some people may want to hi-ab it away. Thats why its safely under lock and key! (I hope)
I hope that my post doesnt get any negative replies, as I don't intend to rile anybody from previous threads I can see that this subject can get peoples blood boiling!
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1987 Maestro 1.6 HL perkins diesel conversion 1986 Audi 100 Avant 1800cc on LPG 1979 Allegro Series 2 special 4 door 1500cc with vynil roof. IN BITS. HERITAGE ISSUES.
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I'm sorry for covering ground thats alrady been covered, I think the police could take a more active role. If bent drivers saw the odd copper at a meeting they would think twice before taking along a stolen car. We've seen what the Police do.... nothing. That's not going to put anyone off! I don't agree on the V5 front at all. This is going round in circles.....
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My fleet: Suzuki GSX-R600Y SRAD with bald, melted tyres A borrowed Mondeo
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I can see both sides on the V5 thing, like I said a while ago a chap I know their local promoter or track whatever they do actually ask for V5s. Not sure what goes on with that or how well it works or how its enforced.
The cops pulled the driver of that stolen SSS coupe on the way into the meeting and then just let him go. This was in response to a call from someone at the track that the car was there and had tipped them off, but the cops didn't know where the VIN was on the car and the driver didn't either so they didn;t bother looking for it or calling bakc the guy who'd ID'd it to ask where to find the VIN!
So how much use the cops are going to be I dunno.
A regular, visible presence might help. Dunno.
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1937 Austin Street Rod - 1941 Wolseley Not Rod - 1956 Humber Hawk - 1957 Daimler Conquest - 1966 Buick LeSabre - 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury - 1968 Ford Galaxie - 1969 Ford Country Squire - 1969 Mercury Marquis - 1970 Morris Minor - 1970 Buick Skylark - 1970 Ford Galaxie - 1971 Ford Galaxie - 1976 Continental Mark IV - 1976 Ford Capri - 1976 Rover V8 - 1994 Ford Fiesta
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Whilst I also feel that checking V5 at a meeting is definatly a valid and useful deterrant to stealing cars and racing them, or not checking up the history of a car as you buy it. It would seem that it is in the hands of promotors, many of whom wouldn't both doing it.
Although a car can be ringed to have a different vin and V5, that is a whole new level of crime and (bizzarely) on that the police car about more. Which would also add to the deterrant.
Perhaps there could be some pressure put on the police to see if they can think of something. It is afterall their job to find stolen cars, and it can be done as has been proven with the Cortina.
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street
Posted a lot
6.2 ft/lbs of talk
Posts: 4,662
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Jul 27, 2006 10:53:55 GMT
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"The cops pulled the driver of that stolen SSS coupe on the way into the meeting and then just let him go. This was in response to a call from someone at the track that the car was there and had tipped them off, but the cops didn't know where the VIN was on the car and the driver didn't either so they didn;t bother looking for it or calling back the guy who'd ID'd it to ask where to find the VIN!"That is truly disgusting! That kind of incompetence really does make your blood boil I think the point about leaning on the police to get do something about this is a very good one- At the very least, some sort of imput from them to help work out what is and what isn't viable way of putting a stop to stolen classics ending up on the oval. I'm sure with the banger community, the retro community and Practical Classics + whoever else we can get on board combined, we should be a loud enough voice for the police to take notice and work out some course of action that we can all agree on
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Last Edit: Jul 27, 2006 10:56:43 GMT by street
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Jul 27, 2006 15:32:26 GMT
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That is very bad of the police to actually have the stolen datsun under their noses and still let the fella get away with it. Even if the car had been built up as a banger and wasnt going to go back on the road anyway due to all the holes drilled in it/ missing pieces they should still punish the thief. I think they probably don't see the theft of an "old banger" as high on their prioritys. The main problem is that the Banger world isnt under one controlling body, so even if one promotor started checking for nicked cars, youd still have to convince the rest of them. Most big promotors come under the oval racing council (O.R.C) Even if they printed in their log books in the back that anyone proved to be racing a stolen car will be named and shamed that would be a start. The first step is to just be careful where you park your car. If you have a car that would be attractive to banger racers try to have it locked away at night. They only pinch cars that are easy to hi-ab away. If you have a mk1 or 2 granny, a westie or a cortina (or even a bluebird!) be choosy about where you leave it. You could even go as far as having a tracker installed if you have the money? There ARE enough classics to go about for both restorers and banger racers. If communication is improved and attitudes on both sides change I'm sure we can all live in harmony
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1987 Maestro 1.6 HL perkins diesel conversion 1986 Audi 100 Avant 1800cc on LPG 1979 Allegro Series 2 special 4 door 1500cc with vynil roof. IN BITS. HERITAGE ISSUES.
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