Snapped gearbox mount bolt. Now with added problem

[MiniDan]

Hi guys,

The gearbox mount was knackered on my Mk2 Punto, so set about changing it. Couldn't be too hard I though, I recently had the mount off when I rebuilt the gearbox and I covered it in copper grease before it went back in. Wrong. Started applying pressure and it sheared off about 2mm inside the recess. curse word.

Today I got the drill out to try my extrector kit on it. Started off small and worked my way up in size. Got to the second biggest (No. 7) and put the extractor part on. 10 seconds of it being on there the bloody thing snaps in half



the extract tool is stuck.




I'm stumpped how I'm going to sort this now. It is on the centre part of the subframe. To take it off you have to remove most of front underside, which is only going to resault in more snapped bolts going on previous times with this car.

Does anybody have any ideas? The only thing I can think of now is fire, but Mrs MiniDan says that isn't practical.

[twoeggon]

jusr drill it out and retap

[MrSpeedy]

Aug 9, 2012 2:38:35 GMT twoeggon said:

jusr drill it out and retap

REALLY

Unless you have proper carbide drills you have more chance of seeing Elvis giving Bob Hope a piggyback through Trafalgar square naked!

Broken taps/extractors etc are a nightmare to remove. The last one we had was in a flywheel andthat had to go on a spark erosion machine to remove it. Obviously that's not practical here tho.
If you have access to oxy/acetylene kit it 'may' be possible to free it up enough with heating, or even 'burn out' the extractor (I've done this before with a tap but it's not pretty). You will of course take all neccesary fire precautions i'm sure.

Not easy solution I'm afraid.

Another option would be to cut out the whole 'nut' area with a hole saw and weld in a new captive nut. I'm unfarmiliar with how that area is costructed, but that's all I can think of

[MiniDan]

Aug 9, 2012 9:49:27 GMT MrSpeedy said:

Broken taps/extractors etc are a nightmare to remove. The last one we had was in a flywheel andthat had to go on a spark erosion machine to remove it. Obviously that's not practical here tho.
If you have access to oxy/acetylene kit it 'may' be possible to free it up enough with heating, or even 'burn out' the extractor (I've done this before with a tap but it's not pretty). You will of course take all neccesary fire precautions i'm sure.

Not easy solution I'm afraid.

Another option would be to cut out the whole 'nut' area with a hole saw and weld in a new captive nut. I'm unfarmiliar with how that area is costructed, but that's all I can think of

I did heat it a little with a blow tourch. Not as good as oxy/acetylene I know, but it's all I've got. Did it very gingerly though as there are a few wires and fuel lines knocking around in that area.

Cutting that section out is all I can think off now and do as you say and weld a new plate on with a captive nut in.

Wishing we hadn't decided to get a more 'modern and reliable car' now

[ianboyd]

Aug 9, 2012 9:49:27 GMT MrSpeedy said:

Aug 9, 2012 2:38:35 GMT twoeggon said:

jusr drill it out and retap

REALLY





Another option would be to cut out the whole 'nut' area with a hole saw and weld in a new captive nut. I'm unfarmiliar with how that area is costructed, but that's all I can think of

either remove the full thing heating each bolt or do this, there's no other way that isn't a lot of pain!

[adamwatson]

I've broken a stud extractor and drilled it out before. Start small, go slow and use lots of cutting oil. Have lots of spare bits handy

[Dez]

if anyones drilled a stud extractor out, it must have been a piece of wibblepoo to start with. no drill bit will touch a proper one.
those extractor tools are totally useless anyway, ive never, ever seen one work, in over 10 yrs!

dan,
id go with what mrspeedy says. youre either gunna need oxy, if you can lay your hands on some you can heat up just the remains of the bolt and the extractor til its orange, then with the appropriate size punch drift it straight through, stripping the threads off the bolt and leaving them in the hole it if that makes sense, then tap the hole out.

but as you don't have oxy, I'm guessing youll be better off just chopping a ittle bit out and making up a repair section with a nut welded to it to replace it.

[twoeggon]

If it snapped that easily drilling will be easy'look at the break,its granulal not a clean shear meaning the tool hasnt been tempered enough ie cheap wibblepoo,ive broken easy outs and resorted to cutting the captive nut out and welding in a new peice'perhaps a little thought before the post you made would be more in keeping with rules on :'(f the site or do they not apply to the cliquey little group I've heard about on here

[rmad]

Aug 9, 2012 14:38:36 GMT twoeggon said:

If it snapped that easily drilling will be easy'look at the break,its granulal not a clean shear meaning the tool hasnt been tempered enough ie cheap wibblepoo,ive broken easy outs and resorted to cutting the captive nut out and welding in a new peice'perhaps a little thought before the post you made would be more in keeping with rules on :'(f the site or do they not apply to the cliquey little group I've heard about on here

Whoah!

f the site?
cliquey little groups?

Looking at the thread, I can see nothing that warrants your rant, or indeed who it is that has sparked it.

Try and be less aggressive (and clearer) in your posts please.


Thanks.

[twoeggon]

Nice impartiality there moderator, not cliquey at all then.

[MiniDan]

Aug 9, 2012 11:42:09 GMT Dez said:

dan,
id go with what mrspeedy says. youre either gunna need oxy, if you can lay your hands on some you can heat up just the remains of the bolt and the extractor til its orange, then with the appropriate size punch drift it straight through, stripping the threads off the bolt and leaving them in the hole it if that makes sense, then tap the hole out.

but as you don't have oxy, I'm guessing youll be better off just chopping a ittle bit out and making up a repair section with a nut welded to it to replace it.

I can get hold of some oxy, but its getting the car there (transporter-less at the minute while its having some MOT work done) and I'd need to remove all the fuel piping and wiring that are close by. My mate only has one ramp in his garage and I don't think he'll like me taking it up.

Aug 9, 2012 14:38:36 GMT twoeggon said:

If it snapped that easily drilling will be easy'look at the break,its granulal not a clean shear meaning the tool hasnt been tempered enough ie cheap wibblepoo

Becasue it's snapped at an angle I think it'll be really hard to get another drill to bite into it. Could try punching it I guess and see what happens. Your right about cheap curse word. It was a Clarke set I got from Machine Mart a while ago. All the Clarke stuff I've ever brought has broke not long after purchase.

[MrSpeedy]

Aug 9, 2012 14:38:36 GMT twoeggon said:

If it snapped that easily drilling will be easy'look at the break,its granulal not a clean shear meaning the tool hasnt been tempered enough ie cheap wibblepoo,ive broken easy outs and resorted to cutting the captive nut out and welding in a new peice'perhaps a little thought before the post you made would be more in keeping with rules on :'(f the site or do they not apply to the cliquey little group I've heard about on here

Tempering is the method of reducing hardness and increasing toughness. Either way you need specialist drill bits. You need to understand the terminology if you're going to use it.

As for cliques, I barely know anyone on here personally, but as a time served engineer, it's easy to spot those that know what they're talking about rather than those that think they do !

I think there's enough answers been given to help the OP out of his tricky situation.

[twoeggon]

Yes a can spot one too ,metallurgy is a difficult subject to the amateur ,good luck with the fix dude:-)

[HoTWire]

Aug 9, 2012 17:02:51 GMT twoeggon said:

Nice impartiality there moderator, not cliquey at all then.

What a strange attitude to have being so new to the forum... It is almost as if you have come in with a chip on your shoulder about something and wish to prove it to be true*. That would be a ridiculous way to approach life as you'd spend your entire time being needlessly angry about things totally outside of your control.


FYI We don't tend to edit replies in the tech section for technical accuracy, solutions are expected to be justified and other suitable technical folk will offer fairly worded critque of solutions being offered up. Exactly like you did, but without the needless attitude.





*almost as if you were one of the folk that angrily quit the forum because it was 'cliquey' a few weeks back and have already returned, but that would be pretty pathetic don't you think?

[twoeggon]

No

[rmad]

Aug 9, 2012 17:02:51 GMT twoeggon said:

Nice impartiality there moderator, not cliquey at all then.

In my post I explained that I didn't even know who your rant was aimed at and now I'm being accused of supporting them?

This fictional clique is pretty small if even I, as the only member, didn't know I was in it.

Once again, please keep the poor attitude of the forum.

[bortaf]

Aug 9, 2012 14:38:36 GMT twoeggon said:

If it snapped that easily drilling will be easy'look at the break,its granulal not a clean shear meaning the tool hasnt been tempered enough ie cheap wibblepoo,ive broken easy outs and resorted to cutting the captive nut out and welding in a new peice'perhaps a little thought before the post you made would be more in keeping with rules on :'(f the site or do they not apply to the cliquey little group I've heard about on here

Ok I read that not as F the site but as "of the site" and the o turned into a smilie BUT, way to spew a bad attitude early on lol if there is a click you certainly aint getting in with curse word like that! IMHO an old agreived memer or friend of out to prove a point that isnt there

Back to the problem in hand, i've used a few extractors and the decent ones do work if your carefull, cheep ones only make it worse unfortunatly, the only real solution is a decent drill bit and drill it out, as already said slow and lube is the the way, gonna take ages but it is doable, I dood it often enough lol
TBH I wouldn't start too small, that way be lots of snapped expensive drill bits just go slow you'll soon pick up on teh naturall cutting speed if you have a drill with adjustable speed on the trigger (makes is so much easyer with a limiter on the trigger). it's too deep to weld to I see

[RobinJI]

If it has snapped at an angle then you'll be incredibly lucky to drill it out without taking out half the captive nut with it, at which point you'd have to cut and weld anyway. Personally I'd say 'sod it,' cut out the raised section it's on, replace the captive nut on it and weld it back in. You'll have it done in less time than it'd take to continue this debate. Sometimes the fastest route to the end result it just the one that takes the least sitting around worrying, because nothing's getting done during that time.


Twoeggon, it's not my place to question your opinion, but your lack of sentence structure or explanation is what led you into that argument, not any clicks. If rather than barking a grammar-less instruction with no reasoning you'd put something like:

"You should be able to drill that out, it looks like a fairly cheap extractor from the way it's snapped, so you should get a drill through it eventually."

Then people's replies would be a lot more favorable, probably saying that your option was fine, and then just giving alternatives. As you didn't explain yourself and came across as if you'd put no effort into your post, rightly or wrongly it looked like you'd probably put no effort into considering your response, so people decided to call you out on it, as you hadn't made your reasoning clear.

PS, yeah, I read the :'(f as a type too, not an attempt at swearing.

[10mpg]

can you modify the component that fixes to it so it can be attached in a different way?