MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,786
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Sept 5, 2012 19:42:36 GMT
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Well, I'm rapidly running out of patience with trying to sort out the fuelling for the Vitesse, so, if this next set of needles doesn't do the trick I'm gonna go all 'high tech' and fit EFI and full electronic ignition, building my own manifold/plenum, tank/pump assy etc and control it all with an MSII.
So, anyone got experience of the Megasquirt set up? What should I be looking for parts wise etc.
I'm thinking it should be possible to get somewhere near 170 bhp with the final setup (which will include 6-3-1 exhaust)
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ChasR
RR Helper
motivation
Posts: 10,195
Club RR Member Number: 170
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Sept 5, 2012 20:45:20 GMT
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There was me liking the charm of your Vitesse as well! I cannot be of much help (sorry for cluttering the thread!) but I guess it might be an idea to say what I have seen and come across. I have seen a Spitfire running EFI (an Emerald setup I admit) using PI ITBs and Bosch injectors. However, getting a map sensor to work with it was tricky. It did sound (and go!) beautifully when it was working. The other type I have seen is where (using PI Bodies again) the throttle discs have been binned, the bodies sealed up with a plenum chamber added with only one large throttle body put onto it. Dave Walker said this was done so as to get by the issue of leaky throttle bodies that affected the PI systems in his opinion. It seemed to work well with him (it was producing around the kind of power than you want), but he did say that a single throttle body setup was not the best setup for a Triumph 6 with a wild cam on it. www.emeraldm3d.com/articles/may2012/www.emeraldm3d.com/articles/apr2012/
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Sept 5, 2012 22:17:32 GMT
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I've done 2 Triumph 6 pot conversions. The first on my Vitesse in 2006, based on homemade plenum manifold. www.shadetreegarage.co.uk/Megasquirt1.htm (ancient, crappy and out of date website) www.triumphowners.com/registry.cgi?section=triumph&vehicleID=574&i=0Still running largely unchanged since the addition of the ignition part. It just works. I leave it alone. Goes and has been extensively tested in daily use and by caning it all over Europe several times, including extensive Alpine & Pyrenean action. Engine is standard MkII internally and makes about 120bhp now. Capable of 40+mpg if I can control my heavy hoof (rare!). Typically mid 30s average. Low 20s beating it round the Alps (but huge fun!) about 14 mpg on the Nurburgring (utterly terrifying). Second is my 2.5PI, done last year. That's based on modded PI inlet & plenum with single TB. Less fully developed as I've only just overcome (I hope) fairly major engine issues (rusted bores, cam lobes missing). Only done 350 ish miles since engine rebuild but working much better now! Also assisted a friend converting his US spec TR6 which also uses PI inlets and plenum. This is also recent and needs further mapping work but it's gained a good few horses! PI TBs are a tight fit under a Vitesse bonnet especially with a fuel rail on top. That's why I made my own manifold. PI TBs have 46mm butterflies as standard - which are a bit big, making balancing critical and low-end mapping tricky. Might be some benefit in retaining individual throttles if your cam has alot of overlap. I use MS2 on version 3 hardware and Ford EDIS 6. This does batch fire and can control 1 coil (or Ford EDIS) on standard hardware. It is possible to add two more coil drivers pretty easily to do wasted spark ignition without the EDIS. MS3 can do sequential (cam sensor also needed) which might help tidy up a ragged bottom end if you have a wild cam, but not much else. Do take take advantage of the mappable 3D ignition possibilities. makes at least as much difference as the injection itself. Do buy yourself a wideband O2 sensor - autotune is bloody magic! It really freaks people out watching you tune a 60s car with a laptop...... Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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andyborris
Posted a lot
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
Posts: 2,167
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Sept 6, 2012 15:51:07 GMT
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rodney
Posted a lot
https://www.facebook.com/RD-vehicle-transport-and-recovery-services-525622614268010/
Posts: 1,677
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Sept 6, 2012 16:07:51 GMT
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people often use a zetec coil pack and external edis4 box with mega ,
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facebook: rodney dean / rd transport
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Phil H
Posted a lot
Posts: 1,448
Club RR Member Number: 133
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Sept 6, 2012 17:50:19 GMT
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Sept 6, 2012 18:29:26 GMT
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,786
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Sept 6, 2012 18:34:02 GMT
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This is all good peeps. Cheers VitesseEfi, that set up you have there is pretty much what I had in my mind! What throttle body/tps did you use, and what injectors?
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Sept 6, 2012 20:57:05 GMT
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Based on the Vitesse install: TB is Rover 216 Vitesse (you'll never find another one of those!) with the AAV cut off (it didn't work), but anything of similar size will be fine. It's 54mm IIRC and that's plenty big - 70mph cruise uses about 6% throttle. TPS was attached already. Lot of people use Rover K series 1800 TBs - the aluminium ones rather than plastic. AAV is a Bosch bimetallic jobby from Golf1 GTi - no ECU involvement.
Injectors from Peugeot 205/309GTi 405SRi. Flow about 214cc/min. Bit big for this engine in fact so using a 2.5 Bar regulator to reduce flow a little. That comes from Vauxhall family 2 8v series of engines (Cavalier/Astra/Calibra 1.8 or 2.0) and conveniently comes with hose tails.
Again, choice is huge - anything with flow in that ballpark will be ok. BMW 320 would probably be good and come in convenient sets of 6.
Fuel rail is a cut and shut of two Peugeot ones as the pair spacing matches Triumph. Ugly but effective.
Fuel pump also Peugeot 405 (same as Astra, Cavalier, Jag) mounted under boot floor and fed from the tank drain via a strainer. I put a short tube section in the banjo so it's not sucking right off the tank bottom. Original line does return duty. Works well - no starvation/surge even when tank almost dry (basic tank shape is a big help)
Trigger wheel from 1.8CVH Sierra, crank sensor from Fiesta. EDIS6 from V6 auto Mondeo and coil-pack also. You can use an Omega coilpack if you prefer - makes plug leads alot less hassle!
Manifold is 1 1/4" exhaust tube, which has 30mm ID matching the port size and some 1.6 mm plate. Suggest you don't bend the runners as much as I did. Misses the clutch m/c by miles but space is REAL tight at the front as a result.
The original aim was absolutely as simple and cheap as possible. Cost under ยฃ300 for the injection only, triggered from the points (!) including ECU. Added the ignition a year later (ยฃ100 ish) then the wideband LC1 (ยฃ120ish). Upgrade to MS2 version 3.0 wasn't strictly needed..... I wanted barometric correction for the big mountains though. Old ECU is my spare.
Cheers
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Sept 7, 2012 14:12:05 GMT
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I have a set of M3 throttle bodies if you wanna go properly nuts. :-D
Yours in exchange for some gearbox adaptor making...
I've also got a pro built MS1 and various edis modules and coil packs...
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Koos
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Sept 7, 2012 22:27:48 GMT
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Nice idea..... but they might be a bit big. Anything over 40mm is a bit big IMO. PI TBs are 46mm - and are too big - even for 2.5s
Bike TBs from something 600cc ish might work though the spacings are troublesome and you need two sets.....
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Sept 7, 2012 23:09:20 GMT
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I'd have to check but i think they're 45s....
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Koos
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,786
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Nick, that is superb info up there. Most helpfull thanks.
I think in the interests of under bonnet space/plumbing I'll be building a manifold/plenum and using a single large TB on the end, rather than ITBs. Maybe not 'quite' as efficient, but it will be a lot easier to fit in around the new exhaust manifold I'm making. It may actually be better as the manifold runners could be upswept slightly to get away from the exhaust, whereas ITBs would be rather close and therefore inlet temperatures would rise.
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Sept 8, 2012 22:12:15 GMT
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You will not have room to sweep the runners upwards - not at the front at least. But you won't need to either. Mine are straight in the horizontal plane and leave loads of room round the exhaust. Remember the exhaust ports are biased downwards so exhaust runners want to point down really.
I've been very happy with the fabricated manifold - originally planned to try a few different ideas but this one has worked so well I've just driven it. It's only been off once since the original build - to swap the head.
Only thing that you might find, dependent on just how wild your cam is (especially amount of overlap) is that plenum manifolds are supposed not to work well with wild cams at low rpm due to reversion. Not sure how much of an issue this is in reality - I know someone running a fairly wild cam in a Triumph 6 (2L) using PI TBs with butterflies removed and single throttle instead and that seems to work very well.
Will watch with interest! Wideband O2 system well worth the money BTW, if you've not got one already - just work up a target table, engage auto-tune (Tuner Studio) and away you go!
Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Sept 10, 2012 15:24:02 GMT
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As Nick said, big cam + plenum = low speed shunting.
Get some big snorty ITB's on it man!! :-)
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Koos
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Sept 10, 2012 20:22:29 GMT
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As Nick said, big cam + plenum = low speed shunting. Get some big snorty ITB's on it man!! :-) Nick said maybe...... Such is conventional wisdom, but as I mentioned I do know someone running a near 300ยบ cam in a 2L Triumph six with a single TB and that's pretty civilised. That's also using The Triumph PI bodies and plenum, which are very big. I truly thing my smaller fabricated one works better. Maybe it would restrict top end power on a 2.5 but I somehow doubt it - the restrictions are in the head. Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Sept 11, 2012 13:54:14 GMT
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true, but its the conventional wisdom of people like Daves Walker and Vizard - people that know their onions, which is why I listen.
A 275 cam and up is likely to cause reverse pulses, so Speedys' head banger cam is pretty much garunteed to have a low power band like a badgers bottom.
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Koos
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MrSpeedy
East Midlands
www.vintagediesels.co.uk
Posts: 4,786
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Sept 11, 2012 17:24:02 GMT
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. A 275 cam and up is likely to cause reverse pulses, so Speedys' head banger cam is pretty much garunteed to have a low power band like a badgers bottom. Mine currently has a duration of around 300 deg, and when you open the throttle at low revs you can actually see the petrol being spat back out the carbs I'm not really fussed about how it runs below 2000 rpm. It's not a daily commuter In fact, I'm growing rather fond of the silly lumpy idle That said, I am keeping my eyes open for something a little milder should I get bored. (or to throw in the original engine when I rebuild that over the winter) I think I'm pretty much decided on a single TB and plenum now tho, simply because it'll looktidier imho (and cost less! lol)
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Sept 11, 2012 19:13:25 GMT
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So get on and build it then..... I'm watching with interest Nick
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1967 Triumph Vitesse convertible (old friend) 1996 Audi A6 2.5 TDI Avant (still durability testing) 1972 GT6 Mk3 (Restored after loong rest & getting the hang of being a car again)
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Sept 12, 2012 10:34:05 GMT
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Me too! C'mon Speedy, show us what you can do.
(And if it works, make one for me!!) ;-)
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Koos
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