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Was sitting in one of KL's posher shopping malls yesterday having a cold beer, as you do, and on one of the big screens flashed up the message that Mazda was going to restart rotary development. Very brief, but I'm certain that's what it said.
Now I'm sure I'd read a while ago that they were dropping it, so is this good news for you rotorheads? Or am I, as usual, months (some say years) behind?
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goldnrust
West Midlands
Minimalist
Posts: 1,872
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I've heard they are planning a rotary engine range extender for a petrol-electric car.
A tiny engine, I can't remember but might have been 200cc, that would run at a static rpm charging batteries when needed. The rotary engine can be made very efficient when all its components are designed for static rpm duties.
On the one hand it's good to see Mazda haven't dropped it and maybe this will lead to more proper rotary cars in the future. But it's a bit of a sad end for a fire spitting race engine really....
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yer, it was confirmed by mazda in Moscow motor show as being a project they are developing, but basically it will be a compact electric generator running at it's most optimum fuel efficiency rpm.
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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I really hope they keep producing some, it would be a terrible loss of knowledge if no one does them anymore.
A week ago I spent an entire week-end driving an RX8 (yes I know, not the best etc etc etc) from Montpellier to the Southern Alps through the gorges de l'Ardèche, Mont Ventoux, gorges du Verdon and the Turini pass... It was the best driving experience I've ever had. I'm a redline whore now.
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luckyseven
Posted a lot
Owning sneering dismissive pedantry since 1970
Posts: 3,839
Club RR Member Number: 45
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Rotary Resurrection?luckyseven
@luckyseven
Club Retro Rides Member 45
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I think I'd rather see them let the rotary die than use it is as some pitiful little electric regenerator in a some horrendous Prius-alike abortion. Mazda reckon it'll be running at around 2000 rpm just as a range-extending engine on an electric car. Which admittedly makes a lot more sense as a concept than the Prius setup. But it's still a blasphemous desecration of an engine that should be powering firebreathing sportscars and is still the only non-reciprocating powerplant to have won leMans. Sad times. Emissions legislation murders fun once more  Maybe if Mazda hadn't made such a lash-up of the Renesis powerplant in the RX-8 and compromised it so badly for emissions that it became extremely fragile then interest would have been sustainable. As it is, I can't see the rotary finding a home in a proper car. Not until someone perfects a way of storing sufficient hydrogen on-board.... and installs a nationwide infrastructure to support it, of course |
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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When people stop using cars for silly things like commuting and groceries there will be no need for emissions regulations anymore, that'd be the ultimate solution. But it'll take even longer that installing a nationwide hydrogen infrastructure ;D
As for being the only non-reciprocating engine to win Le Mans, well if they keep banning any other kind of engine it won't be hard to keep that title! Same goes for formula 1, too.
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I expect people felt the same way when steam engines disappeared off the roads, if its had its day then its had its day, probably won't be long before all petrol engines are gone from mainstream cars.
When they get the driverless thing sorted out I dare say most of us will be driving people carrier shaped electric vehicles with the seats swiveled round backwards (safer to travel that way) while we read the papers.
Imagine explaining to your grand kids in 30 years that you used to control a 2 ton lump of steel that could do 140mph, burned fossilised trees and you relied on everyone else not making a mistake to keep you alive.
We are gonna sound as lunatic to them as the guys who raced the open wheelers with 20 litre engines, no seat belts and crash helmets do to us.
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Volvo back as my main squeeze, more boost and some interior goodies on the way.
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Rotary engines are cool, but they were never really sufficiently better than piston engines to produce a marketable advantage. If any new technology has to compete with an existing one, then it must be convincingly better in order to win. It's the exact same reason why electric cars haven't taken off yet.
Having said that, I do enjoy the rotary engines. However, would I buy a brand new car with a rotary engine in it? Never, not in a million years. I would like to see a single-rotor wankel in a chainsaw though, I reckon that would be great.
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luckyseven
Posted a lot
Owning sneering dismissive pedantry since 1970
Posts: 3,839
Club RR Member Number: 45
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Rotary Resurrection?luckyseven
@luckyseven
Club Retro Rides Member 45
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With all due respect, I don't think I necessarily buy into the "if it offers advantages it'll sell" argument because there are many more aspects affecting this than simple efficiency. For example; human innate suspicion of what is unfamiliiar to them; there being a market share to exploit in the first place; in this day and age, marketing plays a huge part (would anyone really buy music from any X-Factor or BGT competitor on their own merit if it weren't for the immense PR steamroller pushing them into your conciousness every five seconds: watch this rubbiah and support such-and-such or make yourself a pariah from society is the subtext); so that leads on to point four, which is people want to belong to a club and that tends to be whatever is already popular, so you buy a Ford or an Opel because that's what your neighbour has or your mate at work. You don't buy a rotary engined car because only that weird guy from the next street's got one and he's a nob... Recent history is littered with things that never quite made it, for example, Beta Max videos were apparently a more efficient medium than VHS but the majority rule won out. Philips laser disc was dead in the water but here we are with a DVD/Blu-ray player in every home... Rotary engines offer many advantages over piston (yeah, and some drawbacks too) but they never got a chance to prove them, really. They were up against 80-odd years (back then) of developement of the piston engine by some of the richest, most influential multi-national companies the planet has ever seen, and Mazda, NSU and (briefly) Citroen were the only companies to actually try to develop the concept in the marketplace. In a fraction the time the piston engine had been around, too. It has to be said, Citroen were an epic failure and NSU too small and misguided to give it a fair go. That Mazda, still a relatively small car manufacturer, managed to make it such a going concern against the odds is some sort of major miracle. Maybe if GM had perservered with their "Corvette" quad-rotor and brought their considerable might to the development of rotaries the story might have been different, but the fuel crisis effectively killed that one As to the rotary having advantages... well, if the small size and weight, ease of packaging, large power output for displacement due to three power strokes per revolution, lack of moving parts to wear/require maintenance, ability to run on a wide range of fuels without modification and downright engineering excellence and funkiness don't sway anyone then clearly I've stumbled into the wrong forum by mistake  |
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With all due respect, I don't think I necessarily buy into the "if it offers advantages it'll sell" argument because there are many more aspects affecting this than simple efficiency. For example; human innate suspicion of what is unfamiliiar to them; there being a market share to exploit in the first place; in this day and age, marketing plays a huge part (would anyone really buy music from any X-Factor or BGT competitor on their own merit if it weren't for the immense PR steamroller pushing them into your conciousness every five seconds: watch this rubbiah and support such-and-such or make yourself a pariah from society is the subtext); so that leads on to point four, which is people want to belong to a club and that tends to be whatever is already popular, so you buy a Ford or an Opel because that's what your neighbour has or your mate at work. You don't buy a rotary engined car because only that weird guy from the next street's got one and he's a nob... Recent history is littered with things that never quite made it, for example, Beta Max videos were apparently a more efficient medium than VHS but the majority rule won out. Philips laser disc was dead in the water but here we are with a DVD/Blu-ray player in every home... Rotary engines offer many advantages over piston (yeah, and some drawbacks too) but they never got a chance to prove them, really. They were up against 80-odd years (back then) of developement of the piston engine by some of the richest, most influential multi-national companies the planet has ever seen, and Mazda, NSU and (briefly) Citroen were the only companies to actually try to develop the concept in the marketplace. In a fraction the time the piston engine had been around, too. It has to be said, Citroen were an epic failure and NSU too small and misguided to give it a fair go. That Mazda, still a relatively small car manufacturer, managed to make it such a going concern against the odds is some sort of major miracle. Maybe if GM had perservered with their "Corvette" quad-rotor and brought their considerable might to the development of rotaries the story might have been different, but the fuel crisis effectively killed that one As to the rotary having advantages... well, if the small size and weight, ease of packaging, large power output for displacement due to three power strokes per revolution, lack of moving parts to wear/require maintenance, ability to run on a wide range of fuels without modification and downright engineering excellence and funkiness don't sway anyone then clearly I've stumbled into the wrong forum by mistake Ah don't forget that Suzuki, DKW and Norton made rotaries, to fit into motorcycles  |
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luckyseven
Posted a lot
Owning sneering dismissive pedantry since 1970
Posts: 3,839
Club RR Member Number: 45
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Rotary Resurrection?luckyseven
@luckyseven
Club Retro Rides Member 45
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No, I certainly haven't forgotten that. The JPS Nortons are easily amongst my favourite racing vehicles evar and one of the reasons I ended up with my RX-7s... However, a few niche bikes, all (except the Suzuki) developed by some bloke in an overall working in his garden shed didn't do much to tip the balance toward proper rotary advancement. DKW fell prey to politics, Suzuki to the need to press two-stroke technology forward following the "acquisition" of MZ's experience and the racing programme. Norton just fell prey (again) to the endemic rubbishness of any British automotive enterprise, underfunding, underdevelopement, mis-management, take your pic... If it hadn't been for no-one in autrhority having a scooby how to measure the displacement of the things, it;s unlikely even the JPS Nortons would have been able to decimate all in Superbikes. And as for Hislop's record-setting bike from the Isle of Man; well, I think if you put God on a bike then he sets a decent lap even if it is largely made from Hoover pipes and angle iron  |
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Don't get me all fuzzy in the lower belly like that, I'm still at work FFS!
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luckyseven
Posted a lot
Owning sneering dismissive pedantry since 1970
Posts: 3,839
Club RR Member Number: 45
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Rotary Resurrection?luckyseven
@luckyseven
Club Retro Rides Member 45
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Don't get me all fuzzy in the lower belly like that, I'm still at work FFS! hahaha, sorry bout that  How about some downsides in the interests of fairness? Ummmm... fuel economy, poor lubrication of crucial apex seals leading to dirty emissions....errr.... turbocharging leads to heat-related reliability issues...can't think of many more, actually.... ummm.... named after a bloke called "Wankel"? (snigger)  |
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Nope, doesn't work (me neither haha). I hope I'll drive an RX7 sometime, because that RX8 was already very very nice.
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Cheap- well at least in Britain. The amount of cheap rx7's and 8's offering everything a fella needs in order to convert some completely unlikely or unsuitable old car in rotary power. That's a big plus. Come guys- do it now while they are still cheap to buy. Economy ain't so bad when they are installed in a lightweight car too.
I drove a rx8 test drive car from a dealer once. Had it only an hour but it's was so fun! Handling was amazing. I think a renesis engine and 6 speed box would be an amazing conversion into an old car?
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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Can't do it over here, except for track use only cars  |
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Curses those eurocountrys with their fun spoiling rules and regulations....
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Clement
Europe
ambitious but rubbish
Posts: 2,095
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It would be fine if it wasn't for a certain English-speaking modified-car forum that opens my eyes only to get me more frustrated every day.
I just saw on wikipedia that some Caterham cars have a Mazda rotary engine, it sounds like the most perfect combo ever.
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There are quite a few Midgets running 13B engines.   I know of one MGB with a rotary engine, but its quite a lot of work to fit. The exhaust exits where the subframe is... I have owned a Norton rotary bike in the past, as did my Dad. I got to ride a Norton F1 rotary bike too, that was something special. The idea of a turbo rotary engine in my MG B is something at the back of my mind that will not go away, and threads like this make it rise to the surface again. |
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Last Edit: Oct 3, 2012 20:00:40 GMT by andycolm
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phil73
Part of things
Posts: 122 
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When they get the driverless thing sorted out I dare say most of us will be driving people carrier shaped electric vehicles with the seats swiveled round backwards (safer to travel that way) while we read the papers. quote] Simple vehicles that never get written off, humans that never get whiplash? This sounds like a hellish situation for car manufacturers and lawyers. Will never happen. |
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Maybe if Mazda hadn't made such a lash-up of the Renesis powerplant in the RX-8 and compromised it so badly for emissions that it became extremely fragile then interest would have been sustainable. As it is, I can't see the rotary finding a home in a proper car. Not until someone perfects a way of storing sufficient hydrogen on-board.... and installs a nationwide infrastructure to support it, of course
