1973 Chrysler Sunbeam 1300Super (aka Hillman Avenger)

[drift_all_the_things]

    Here's my new toy, Gold '73 Sunbeam... It's got original 1.3 inline 4 engine with more-less 55hp, 4-speed manual gearbox, and it's rear wheel driven...
    How came that I bough it? Well, I want to be drifting in professional competitions (Serbian Drift Championship primarily). Most drift cars here are e30, e36 or e46 BMWs with V8s. Although I love BMW, specially e30, I wanted to be unique! I stated looking for good RWD cars other than BMWs, and in the end, I concluded that a Sunbeam would do better than Supra Mk3, Opel Omega 3.0 etc., so I started looking for Sunbeam and this was better one of two on sale so I bought it YAY! Now, the plan... The plan is to do a swap, not sure which one yet, but I'm thinking between 1.6 (originally available in Sunbeam), 2.0 Zetec or c20let, we'll see Rest is standard: roll cage, racing seats, hydro handbrake, sports/racing suspension, upgraded brakes and other racing stuff... From outside, it'll stay mostly original tho some details might be changed/removed/added...
    Car's ok, it has few places where paint is peeling of, few rust spots, right front wing was dented & (too obviously) repaired... On mechanical side, I think it still has LPG (sent it to my mechanic to clean fuel lines and uninstall LPG and I'm not sure is it done yet, I'll check tomorrow), steering wheel is a bit too moveable (goes all around, up, down, left and right) and suspension's not perfect either... Anyway, since I'll be using it for drifting, most of these are unimportant because it will be highly modified... Even if it wasn't the case, it wouldn't be too hard to fix all that
    I also have another Sunbeam with separate thread. I've inherited that one, and it was the reason I selected Sunbeam for drift project car...
    Here, have some pictures of the car, enjoy...

[nevtiger]

Nice

[Hillmanjames]

Very nice! Looking forwards to see what you do engine and suspension wise!

I've got a Hunter myself which is basically the same underneath!

James

[grifterkid]

That looks superb... That is just brilliant!

[Davenger]

Brilliant!
That's gonna look great going sideways

[turbeam]

Mar 26, 2015 10:36:25 GMT Hillmanjames said:

Very nice! Looking forwards to see what you do engine and suspension wise!

I've got a Hunter myself which is basically the same underneath!

James

Just in case there is any confusion that could result in anyone buying some wrong parts, there is almost no crossover at all between the Hunter and Avenger/ Sunbeam models..... the latter were a completely fresh-page design carried out entirely after Chrysler had bought fully into the old Rootes Group.  In fact, the only part that I know of that is definitely common between the two models are the window winder handles!

NONE of the suspension components or even their basic design are in any way the same or compatible, the engines and gearboxes are totally different, and even the Hunter axles are front-loaders while those on the later cars have the usual removeable rear covers for diff access.

Unfortunately then, the Hunter and Avenger or Sunbeam would be of very little use as a spares car for each other either way around.

The original Avenger 1500/1600 pushrod engine isn't a bad unit at all, is deceptively modern in its design, and has considerable untapped potential.   The 16 valve Vauxhall engines are a very common retrofit conversion into these cars too that works really well and compliments the cars capable chassis nicely, and is also in general a very good choice for a swap.

For drifting use though, I'm wondering if even the latter will have anything like enough grunt to get and keep the back end out at will and be able to hold it like that for prolonged periods, at least on dry tarmac?  I would have thought that a good bit more power than that would be needed to be at all competitive in drifting, even if the chassiswith only minor changes is well up to the job?

[dikkehemaworst]

Never even seen one. It has to grow on me i think , but hell yeah you are going to stand out.
Love to see where this is going.

[drift_all_the_things]

Thanks for all the support guys!

Yup, it is quite a rare car even in regular traffic, it's yet unseen in drifting as far as I know And it's a good drifting platform, it just is
Hillmanjames, I think turbeam is correct, they're far from same... Hillman Avenger and Talbot Sunbeam are extremely similar with loads of interchangeable parts As for suspension, I'll talk about it a bit later
turbeam Original engines are great! You could probably get up to 250hp even from 1.3 with well mated turbo(s), built head, racing injection and ECU, etc... But it costs both money and time, a lot of both Chassis is great for drifting, it will require some rather minor mods to get it sideways, but some bigger mods to get it sideways safely and reliably...
dikkehemaworst You'll just fall in love with them, just give them time to grow on you and you'll be helpless

Done stuff first... Cage is done and welded in car, as well as most of the body/chassis strengthening, and I've bought the hydro handbrake, I'll test-fit it soon and it's going in for good
Now, for the engine... At first, I wanted to turbocharge the original 1.3 (because here you can't really register a car with engine swapped if it has bigger displacement than the biggest original engine, 1.6 in this case) before I realized it would be too expensive, engine would be unreliable and still not powerful enough... Then I decided to give up on registering it, and just swap the engine with C20LET. The one I've found already had 310hp, loads of turbo lag (drag racing engine) and big price tag, so I bought a mint C20XE (just rebuilt, stock 150hp) and an R25 gearbox... Yay! Now I have an engine to swap! Yeah, right, sure I do... Why I say that? About an hour ago or so I've bought racing N/A BMW 3.0 engine with 270-280hp with gearbox... So that's going in, and I'm selling the C20XE and R25... I know I'm insane, but that's 800€ for proven drift engine AND gearbox over 380€(eng)+100€(grbx) for stock engine with ~1/2 of the power

Stuff to do... I first have to acquire a Volvo 240 or 260 series rear axle because it should fit with just some minor mods and is a lot stronger than stock unit. I'm searching for it at the moment
As for front suspension, it's similar to BMW e30, which would be a good swap just for the fact that e30 sports/race parts are easily found, where Avenger sports/race parts are next to impossible to find We'll have to analyze that a bit more until we reach a conclusion
I'll probably get some widened "15 steelies and cut the fenders and bolt/rivet in plastic wide flares to fit those rims (&tires) and to allow me to lower the car (in order not to flip upside down like one drifter here did with Kadett C Coupe when ran into tires marking track edge)
General appearance style will be "function over form", meaning that I won't repaint the car (and paint is already starting to chip and fall of), I'll just leave flares white or whatever, won't paint the inside etc., "because race car" It's going to be lowered thus giving out that really angry racing look to the car, it's going to be "MAAAAAAD", as MCM would say

I think I should just stop writing right now because I'm really tired and don't really know what I'm saying any more Pics are coming as soon as I see the car myself, it's not that physically close to me, unfortunately...

Thanks for reading! Talk to you soon!

[eternaloptimist]

Looking forward to seeing more!

[turbeam]

I like the sound of the BMW engine and gearbox in the car.....lots of major cutting and shutting needed, but it can be done.

The choice of Volvo axle is also a very good one, they are super strong. The earlier 1030 axles are exactly the same width as the styock axle 54.5" if menoryserves me correctly(?), or if you don't mind adding wide arches to take it then the 1041 type axles are about 4" (100mm) wider than the stock axles.

Should be fun.

[drift_all_the_things]

turbeam I will be adding wide arches, but I'll also need some "meat" to connect me to the road, so I can't have too wide axles (in order to be able to put wheels wide enough under the arches), although 2" on each side doesn't sound too bad if it's easier to obtain that 1041 axle? To be honest, I was only told that Volvo 240/260 series rear axle should fit easily with only mounts being changed which is better than having to mod the axle itself (like for Atlas axles), so I only know I should find a 240/260 part, not its characteristics
As for the engine, I know, there will be quite some welding, cutting and stuff, but engine can fit in engine bay without changing its dimensions, which is great! Mounts and stuff would have to be custom made anyway... As for 'box tunnel, we'll see what has to be done, but we'll get it done and fitted
eternaloptimist Now that my e30 Touring is finally done, "Driftbeam" will finally be worked on again

[turbeam]

It is true that the earlier axles have a lower arm mounting that is larger but very similar to the Avenger/ Sunbeam one, but they would still need to be narrowed to fit into an Avenger/ Sunbeam lower arm. The later axles like the 1041 are rubber mounted by xlamp brackets onto the Volvo lower arm so don't have these brackets. Whatever axle you start with, it is just as easy to transfer over the lower brackets from the original axle or fabricate new replicas from scratch..... things like the lower damper mountings would have to be added anyway.

It is usually the upper mountings (just outboard off the diff casing) that present far more problems in installing these axles. When I mounted my 1041 axle onto my sprint/ hillclimb/ circuit Sunbeam I decided to 5-link the axle to sidestep this issue. On the narrower early 1030 axle that I'm fitting onto my new roadcar version I'll be welding brackets directly onto the diff hoiusing to keep the stock upper link arrangement.

If you don't mind fitting arches you could use either axle, the narrower axle is only really needed on unarched cars. Even then, you could have some room for adjustment by using different wheel offsets. The wider axle does offer more scope for using wider rear tyres while keeping a well balanced offset and inboard clearance to the inner tubs and chassis legs, but you will find that these days 15" tyres are very width restricted anyway until you get up to Stratos/GT40/ Pantera type rear sizes which are mostly far too tall anyway (and expensive). My car will accept rear tyres of up to 24" wide.... if you can find them.... non-E marked tyres from the US are frustratingly illegal to import. Sensible profiles more or less stop now at 225 section.

If you want to see the sort of arch sizes you might need, check out my thread on here.


I think I must have picked you up wrongly in the last post, I thought that you were planning to install the 3-litre BMW straight 6 engine and matching gearbox. That would certainly not go into the Avenger without some very serious bulkhead and transmission tunnel alteration. Again, if you don't mind relocating an alternative one or running without a heater it is perfectly possible, but the rear of the engine would most likely sit roughly where the middle of the radio now is!

Again, you might get a better idea of what would be involved from engine photos of EGA 701T in my thread. The Volvo straight 6 is quite a bit more compact than the BMW version too! Your car's underbonnet panels are exactly the same as mine used to be.

The BMW 4-cylinder engine is probably a much more sensible choice, but somehow perhaps not quite so attractive as a project!

I'm looking forward to watching your progress.

[avengertec]

Good to see another one on here

[drift_all_the_things]

turbeam Well it was born as M50B25, then redone to 3.0 and had some extensive mods done to it Making it a proper racing engine which was actually in my friend/mechanics drift e30 when he decided he wanted a V8 for his car and offered me his M50 with almost all accessories (minus radiator, fuel & oil cooler), gearbox, exhaust and drive-shaft, all the things he won't need for his car When it comes to space, well yeah, it is a long engine, but he measured it all up and said I'll actually have a bit over 10cm extra space lengthwise (which surprised us both, actually, as we thought there wouldn't even be enough space, same as you did); widthwise, there's obviously more than enough space, I mean, a nice V engine could fit inside, so why shouldn't inline 6? So yeah, it will need some work, that's inevitable, but it shouldn't be too much, at least I hope so As for why I6 over I4, well obviously, I had already built drift 3.0 engine vs. 1.5-2.0 stock engine, choice was obvious
As for rear axle and surrounding stuff, although your Chrysler Sunbeam (rebadged Talbot Sunbeam) and my Chrysler Sunbeam (rebadged Hillman Avenger) share same base, they have certain significant differences, thus I'm not sure how helpful will your detailed explanations be since rear axles differ (as far as I'm informed, at least)... Thank you anyways, I'll probably be able to at least use some ideas and solutions when it comes to fitting the axle itself! P.S. If you ask me, I'd just weld that axle directly to chassis and make it 100% fixed which would actually give me possibility to make way "sicker" slides, but it's forbidden in both competitions I'll be running in at the beginning...
Yes, you're, unfortunately, correct about tire sizes, that's why I was actually planning on using 225s as semi-sensible choice The problem I see is that those 225 15"s are all 60 profile which isn't ideal for drifting since the tire will be able to twist a lot, but that's just how it is and how it will have to work! If I find those too grippy, I'll go to 215s, 205s or even 195s, and if I find them not grippy enough, I'll be forced to go to 225/55 or 235/60 16"s, which I do not like (those are way more expensive here)...

avengertec I have to say thank you, because you are the reason I got to do this! If it wasn't for you and your Zetec project, I would've never even thought about swapping the engine in a Sunbeam/Avenger! That was for the other Sunbeam of mine, which I decided to keep 100% stock and restaurated, but because I realized how possible it was to do a swap, I have decided to get Sunbeam as my drift car and started the project...

I should finally get to visit my car again after some time in the first part of June when some pics of the roll cage and the new engine will probably land the thread! That's the time when the project should really star moving forward a lot quicker
That's all for now, see ya soon!

[avengertec]

Wow thankyou

[turbeam]

Good to hear you are going with the BMW I6.

Part of the reason my bulkhead was so significantly altered for fitment of the Volvo I6 was to get its weight as far back into the car as I could without altering the appearance of the dash, even though the Volvo engine is both shorter and lighter than the BMW equivalent. The other main reasonwas that of course I also had to squeeze a big front mounted intercooler in ahead of the engine as well as an effective sized radiator and electric cooling fan.

On tyres, there are still 225/50/15 sizes available, but not so many manufacturers make them now so choice is quite limited.  I just fitted a pair of rear 225/50/15 Toyo Proxes on the back of my car at the start of the year.

On axles, the information that you have been given is definitely wrong..... the stock rear axles are identical between all Sunbeam and Avenger variants. The only exceptions to this being that the Sunbeam Lotus versions have thicker axle tubes and the Avenger Estate (stationwagon) versions have parallel upper links and a panhard rod rather than the normal converging upper links which must have been considered a better option for carrying heavy loads in the back.

In fact, the floorpans forward of the axle are identical between the two cars, with the 'Avenger' versions being longer by approximately 4" (100mm) whjich gives it its slightly longer wheelbase. Mechanically, there are more differences between early and late model Avengers than there are between late model Avengers and Sunbeams. (for the purpose of this post I'm classing your car as an Avenger).  The two cars look externally very different but are actually alnmost identical under the skin in practice.

One final minor correction, your car is of course called a Sunbeam (as the Avenger for export was known in many European countries) which is really a variant of the Hillman Avenger with only very minor detail changes. Note though that even by the time of the Avenger being designed that the company was actually already fully under Chrysler management and ownership, they just hadn't yet changed the company name to reflect this.

My car is badged as a Chrysler Sunbeam because that is exactly what it was when built and sold, being a 1978 model. They only became Talbots after the Peugeot Citroen group took over the UK plants in 1981 but the French parent company didn't want any direct link to the ex-Chrysler vehicles so they resurected the old Talbot name. Many of the cars already built but not yet sold had their Chrysler badging removed in dealers showrooms and replaced with Talbot badges immediiately before sale, and all cars built after this date were badged as Talbots at the outset. This also applied to late model Avengers, which were also switched from being badged as Hillmans to being badged as Chryslers after a certain date, but then later still became Talbots! 

So all Avenger or Sunbeam model cars carrying Talbot badges are really just Chryslers that have been rebadged as such (whether retrospectively or done from the outset at the factory), and not the other way around.   Avengers badged as Hillmans were still designed and built exclusively by Chrysler, much of the design work being done in the U.S.

The whole Rootes group and onwards naming can be quite confusing for anyone not fully familiar with their history, even as far as the regular mix ups that we get with the much older and very different Sunbeam Talbot models!

Oh, and just to further add to the confusion, a few years ago the Chrysler US company launched a brand new model..... and they called it ....wait for it...... Avenger!

Anyway, I look forward to seeing your progress on this one.....

[drift_all_the_things]

As for changing a few thing in engine bay, I'm ok with it... You only live once, don't you?
I do get lots of contradictory informations, and not knowing those cars too good first hand, I'm prone to believing wrong info, so yeah, sorry if I said something wrong, who knows, maybe I was told about Lotus...
Wow, why did I think that Sunbeam was only made from '80.? That's why I thought your was rebadged... I guess you learn something new every day

Update on the project! I've just bought front suspension from e30, all arms and stuff, Bilstein shocks, H&R springs and Brembo disks and pads... They need some surface rust removal, but nothing serious I'm in a bit of a hurry at the moment, but I'll do my best to upload pictures of it later today

[turbeam]

I hope I didn't come across harshly previously, I didn't mean to, but I think it is quite important to correct any wrong info if for no other reason so that people don't either buy parts that won't be compatible with their car, or miss out on an oppportunity of buying some that would be!

At least with the European 'Avenger' model of Sunbeam there isn't the confusion that I often get with the front wheel drive Chrysler/Talbot Horizon which DOES look fairly similar externally but shares almost no parts at all with the rear wheel drive models.

I think the 'new' Sunbeam model went to prototype in 1976 and production started in 1977, I've previously owned a couple of early 1977 UK 'S' registered ones.


I'll be very interested to see how you utilise the E30 parts....

[drift_all_the_things]

Of course, I support correcting wrong info, I do it myself too, no problems with that I was just saying what I was told, or at least what I understood Specially since I'm probably one of the youngest car owners on here with NO earlier experince since I didn't have one single family member being into cars or being able/wanting to teach me about them So I'm just trying to gather info, sort it, and make a full picture of what it really is and how it works
Those two suspensions are rather similar, almost same, at least by words of my mechanic, so it shouldn't be a problem at all I hope so, at least
My vacation plans have fallen apart so the project's probably going to be worked on sooner and quicker than planned, you can also expect some pictures soon, hopefully

[avengertec]

Thread revival

I’m about to start a new project fitting a red block in a sunbeam
And I’m trying to work out which axle to fit
What did you end up going witj