bosch VE derv pump questions boost reference and 'plungers'

[Dez]

random questions about bosch Ve pumps, for those that have fiddled with them.

basically, I'm trying to make a fully manual, 6 cyl boost referenced VE pump, with a 12mm plunger. I'm fairly certian this doesnt exist, so it'll be a hybrid of 2 or 3 pumps.

say i had a standard non-turbo bosch VE pump - is it possible to turn it into a boost-referenced turbo pump simply by swapping the top of the pump? from what i can see, all the boost reference diaphragm does is move a lever inside that acts on the governor?

i don't have a non-turbo one here to take apart to test wether i can, and i don't want to buy one to find i cant.....

the other question is, i don't quite understand what people mean when they refer to the 'element'. tbh i don't think a lot of people know, i thought the important bit size wise is what bosch call the plunger?

is there any reason i cant bore out a distribution head (and the respective oilways if necessary) to accept a larger plunger?

ive just read my 20th 'how to f-k about with VE pumps guide' this evening and my eyes are square, yet i learned more taking one apart earlier today.......

[chairchild]

as long as the top of the pump has the bolts in the same locations - then yes, you can (in most cases) just swap the top of the pump to one with the LDA section.

The high pressure head+piston is made from amazingly hard steel, and ground to an amazing tolerance - you can only used them as a matched pair. Best bet is to get a second hand 6cyl 12mm head+piston, and fit to yours. Don't even bother wasting time thinking about the cheap chinese versions, they've been known to last literally sub 30 seconds of running.

When people talk about an element, they're on about the Bosch P-pump, not the VE that you've got

Another easy-ish part to upgrade, is the camplate. The higher the lift, and the more violent the profile, the better - but the lever setup which moves the spill collar must also come from the donor pump which the camplate came from. There are many different ratio lever setups floating around, so it's fairly easy to mis-match so the camplate moves further than the lever... which results in the whole setup being unnaturally limited. More an irritation than a major setback however

What parts have you got so far?

[Dez]

i knew it would be you who answered

top swappage is good news. its probably going to be the easiest way to do this.

afaik, there isnt a 12mm 6 cyl head/piston setup available, not that i can find anyway. ive found reference to one on an italian site, and it being from an iveco, but all the ivecos i can find are 4cyl? even the 3.9/4.2L tektor engine is 4 cyl.

you can get 10mm from various BMWs but then it jumps up to 16mm for the cummins 6BT setup. which is miles too big as its for a 5.9L.

ive currently got a spare 4cyl fully manual iveco pump, 12mm, but useless as its 4cyl. only useful part is the top, but i have learnt a lot taking it apart and reassembling.

I'm picking up a spare BMW TDS pump later today to pull apart rather than doing my 'good' one on the motor, which is 6cyl, 10mm, but fly-by-wire/electronically governed. I'm hoping i can swap out the entire top plate to make it fully manual, but that still leaves me with a 10mm head- itll do for now, but ultimatley i need to be 12mm with the turbo i have planned.

as it stands, 6cyl stuff is much harder to find/get than 4cyl stuff. i have a full list of all vehicles fitted with a VE, but pretty much all of them are 4 cyl from what ive seen- you have to go through and google every one individually (well, the ones you don't know anyway) as it doesnt tell you on the list.

[chairchild]

Oct 12, 2014 11:30:54 GMT Dez said:

i knew it would be you who answered

Well, I *do* feel like I've got a debt to repay tbh


10mm head should be pretty good - with a big camplate (approx 3.5mm lift) you should be able to get close to 50Bhp per cylinder. If you try to fit the massive 16mm head, you'll have to limit your rpms, as it was only ever designed to go to around 3500rpm. Holding it at 4500rpm, you run the risk of the piston shearing off in the head

[Dez]

debt? i wasnt aware of one.

i have spent most of the day researching- in other words, buried in the depths of google.

the current plunger is actually a '10E'. it would appear that this would mean its modded for a bit more flow than a normal 10, its cut away round the top somehow which is supposed to allow fast filling. i'll have to go back and find the pic.

i plan to use a 4200rpm governor spring. you can buy specific rated ones for like £10 for the dodge cummins pumps, so its daft trying to guess what weight your spring is when they're that cheap.

i have now found you can actually get a 6cyl 12mm head/plunger assy, as luck would have it its actually quite an easy one to get for me as it comes on euro/uk market 'low power' cummins 6BTs in leyland/daf roadrunner variants. its viewed as trash by the yanks, but for what I'm trying to do, should be good for at least 250hp, if not 300. i cant find anything about how aggressive the roller plate is though.

[Dez]

on top of that, ive been looking at turbos too- the stock TD04 is an 11G-4, with some later variants having a 13T-4, but no power increase suggesting they kept the fuelling the same?

current debate is wether to go up to a 6cc exhaust housing, or stick with the 4cc one otherwise i'll not be spooling til I'm a lot closer to the rev limit- and then how big a coldside i can fit- will go at least 15 i expect, maybe a 16. i think 18 would be pushing it. the obvious simple/cheap answer is to buy a saab or volvo TD04HL-15T-6, and try that on and see what happens, then i can always upgrade the coldside later.

[chairchild]

just all that jazz with the diff tbh.


Also, what size is the 6cyl you're intending on slapping this onto? If it's around 4L, then you should easily be able to slap on two GT1752 turbos (dirt cheap on ebay) and have a nice spool, with plenty of flow, and approx 20psi of boost

[Dez]

hah, didnt bother me as much as it seemed to bother other people did it sell in the end?

its only 2.5L, but i don't see any reason why with the appropriate pump, turbo and intercooler, somewhere in the 250-300 bracket isnt achievable.

[chairchild]

eventually, with a LOT of ballache! lol

If you slap on a single GT1752 (I'm more familiar with Garrets than the TD04 family) it should make an easy 180Bhp, with really early spool. May only be reliable for around 16-19psi however. If you run two in parallel, it'll obviously spool a bit later, but with vastly greater flow, and 20-23psi of boost


Or... get yourself a GT2056v, Adjust the VNT position for what you feel is a good compromise of spool/top end flow, and run an external wastegate for boost control. Overall much simpler for fitting compared to TWO turbos

[Dez]

its proported to make 175-190 with the stock electrospastic pump and a chipped ECU(which i happen to have), stock turbo, decat(got that too) and a big intercooler, so i wouldnt be gaining anything by doing so. the whole point of this project is to go a step or two above that.
i reckon 250hp with around 300ft/lbs is quite doable, and the chassis should take it, if not theres available upgrades to make it take it.


i think i'll be going with the TD04, as they're so adaptable, and theres so much stuff available for them at pretty good prices, as its what imprezas, the saab aeros and the volvos use.

[chairchild]

fair enough! It's most likely running something very similar then If you know who remapped it, ask if there's much scope left in the fuelling - or if it's running close to the limits. Most stock pumps can supply far above what their respective turbos can supply - may be the case with yours too with any luck.

And here's another thing to get your brain whirring around: Tri-turbo



www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/1204dp_junkyard_cummins_triple_turbo_system/

www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/1008dp_dodge_ram_cummins_triple_turbo/

[Dez]

its just got an endtuning chip shoved in there-

www.endtuning.com/tdschips.html

my issue with that is, to make any further changes, id need to look to mapping or different chips, which means ££££. unless i just EVRYmod it with some maplins gear, but then thats means all the smokes, all the time, and the possibility of bore wash, etc.

all wisdom on the subject says youll never break 200hp with a 10mm plunger. hence me wanting to go up to 12mm. if i do that with a fully manual pump, it means tuning comes down to a screwdriver and a test drive...

[chairchild]

Rover 25, with a 10mm plunger, and violent camplate (all stock pump parts however) 4cyl 2L, made 212Bhp

Took around 30psi to get it, from a tasty little VNT hybrid

[customsinc]

212 on an L-series?! More input!

[welshpug]

seen 237 from an xud running a vnt in a zx on the 306oc!

try getting hold of darren lobb, he's got loads of bosch pump bits, converted a v6 tdi audi to a mechanical pump last year using a pump off a bus.

hes on a few 306 forums, and youtube.

[chairchild]

Oct 12, 2014 20:57:59 GMT customsinc said:

212 on an L-series?! More input!

GT1856 hybrid VNT, with custom control unit, big-ass nozzles, and mapped to perfection, by a genius (goes by the name Dakta on forums)

All stock internals - even used the stock manifolds, just an adaptor plate for the turbo

[customsinc]

I rarely get time to browse in to forums in depth or contribute, busy with work and fatherhood! Need to check on latest developments in the L-series world for my own motah